How far is it fair to go with Sit Outs?

[kippe6]

i wonder if they was on the bad end of that play they would see it the same way

[Burnley Joe]

I was beaten fair and square KK v A 10

[Reeshah]

Originally Posted by goater14

out in 7th not happy! The big chip leader on the final table(due to the fact he had a table full of sit-outs) is folding his hands instead of checking to keep the sit-outs in.
i know its not cheating but consider it very unsportsmanlike he will raise when me and the other player are in the blinds(rightly so) but with the sit-outs will call and when the flop comes down instead of checking will fold.
Could even say it is chip dumping as he is folding when he should be checking and passing his chips to the sit-outs? perhaps its just me being in a bad mood but it has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

So if i just check it down to showdown would you then consider my strategy legitimate? or is the only legitimate play to steal from the sitouts? if i just check it down then i am clearly not trying to take the pot myself so would that classify as illegitimate too?

[SilentJay]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Surely the objective is to play your cards in the best way possible to maximise points for your team If folding gets you the most points, that should be your action. If calling then folding gets you most points, that should be your action?

People who play like this = http://youtube.com/watch?v=82ochcQ56Es

I'm sure he does it for the good of the team, too. We all know what the rest of the world thinks of it...

[voiceofjoe]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

This is what it says on the Pokerroom website:



The sole intent has to be to increase combined chances of winning prize money
however in this case the sole intent was just to increase personal results (not in the individual tournament, but in the overall leaderboard)

I can't believe you publish the definition of Chip Dumping - it reads exactly as Reesah (and yourself by your own admission) was doing then your daft enough to defend it.

Explain how on earth he didnt increase the chances of the sitout by giving him some chips !! -

[Reeshah]

Originally Posted by Burnley Joe

Why you were doing it at the final table!

btw i seem to remember that you wrote in the chat box something about raising the sitouts because they arnt there...

i hate to be technical but since im the accusee of cheating/unsporting behavior id have to say that your comments may be construed as collusion. what do you think?

obviously I wouldnt seriously accuse you of collusion because it would be ridiculous and it happens all the time but its something to think about anyway.

[Burnley Joe]

I was saying it because you were chip dumping to them, so if i say to you why not raise hes sitting out thats collusion is it?

No thats fcking common sense

[Reeshah]

common sense or not its still collusion in the strictest sense and theres no doubt about that. Im not suggesting that we heavily regulate these things but if we are to control what ppl do with their chips then poker wont be poker anymore.

And anyway i wasnt trying to accuse you, i just wanted to put this thing into perspective.

[morlspin]

from what ive read am i right in thinking:

Sitout is BB

Reeshah calls the BB

Reeshah then folds giving the BB money?

Thats CHIP DUMPING!

[Burnley Joe]

Exactly morls

And that would stand up would it? We are in two different teams and i say "why dont you raise him hes sitting out?"

Rees I hope you are a barrister you could defend Bin Laden

"Well i did not really tell them to aim for the towers, i said flowers!"

Anyway, my point is that it was not collusion and could never be by stating the obvious, but i am glad your posting your comments on here about chip dumping

[Mr Intensity]

Originally Posted by voiceofjoe

I can't believe you publish the definition of Chip Dumping - it reads exactly as Reesah (and yourself by your own admission) was doing then your daft enough to defend it.

Explain how on earth he didnt increase the chances of the sitout by giving him some chips !! -

You think Reesh was doing it to increase the chance of the sitout winning prize money?

[Adetrick]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

when I was last to act against sit outs and folded, I really didn't for a second consider it could be unreasonble, unsporting, unethical, or at worst downright cheating

A perfect example of why I should take poker more seriously, as this wouldn't have even crossed my mind. Then again, being purely a leisure player, poker isn't life or death for me.

IMO giving chips to an opponent, rather than playing at them (whether live or sit-out), is at best unsporting and at worst....

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by morlspin

from what ive read am i right in thinking:

Sitout is BB

Reeshah calls the BB

Reeshah then folds giving the BB money?

Thats CHIP DUMPING!

What do you think his motive is for giving an unknown (presumably) sit out extra chips?

Whilst the sit outs are at the table, his fold equity as the biggest stack is significantly larger than when the sit outs have been eliminated - by letting the sit outs win more hands than they should, he's maximising his fold equity and maximising his chances of winning.

The Pokerroom definition of chip dumping is in post 20 - the sole reason for doing it for it to be considered chip dumping must be to increase the combined chances of both players winning - that's clearly not the case here - it was done with the sole intent of increasing his own chances of winning.....

[GotaFancy?]

In a similar vain - I often fold to short stacks on the bubble in buy in tournaments if I am chip leader, in order to maintain and maximise my fold equity - is that unreasonable? It's exactly the same isn't it? (I think Harrington even discusses it as a legitimate tactic in one of the HoH series)

[morlspin]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

What do you think his motive is for giving an unknown (presumably) sit out extra chips?

Whilst the sit outs are at the table, his fold equity as the biggest stack is significantly larger than when the sit outs have been eliminated - by letting the sit outs win more hands than they should, he's maximising his fold equity and maximising his chances of winning.

The Pokerroom definition of chip dumping is in post 20 - the sole reason for doing it for it to be considered chip dumping must be to increase the combined chances of both players winning - that's clearly not the case here - it was done with the sole intent of increasing his own chances of winning.....

LOL@ FOLD EQUITY!!!

They are sat out.....he cant lose, therefore has no fold equity.

By increasing his own chances of winning, isnt he then not also increasing the sit outs chances of winning too? (more points means more money)

Its chip dumping, maybe not in the eyes of pokerrooms terms and conditions, but its chip dumping all the same

[kippe6]

by giving a sit out chips he has chances of staying in the game longer so profiting in points or prizes i cant understand how you can see this as right. the league is a farce but letting play like this is just making it worse

[Burnley Joe]

Hand T4-66409364-67, Started at 27/04/2008 15:45 (EDT)
Table 'Cardiff': 100-100 No Limit HE (TournamentChips)
Seat 0: Moldranx (915 in chips)
Seat 1: BurnleyJoe (1,040 in chips)
Seat 2: joejoejones (855 in chips)
Seat 3: readie (1,725 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 5: beamafpat05 (525 in chips)
Seat 6: 4KingsBen (645 in chips)
Seat 7: D4ZZLER007 (3,280 in chips)
Seat 9: Reeeshah (21,015 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
beamafpat05 : Post Blind (50)
4KingsBen : Post Blind (100)
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: Qs
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: 2h
*** Pre-Flop *** :
D4ZZLER007 : Fold
Reeeshah : Call (100)
Moldranx : Fold
BurnleyJoe : Fold
joejoejones : Fold
readie : Fold
beamafpat05 : Fold
4KingsBen : Check
*** Flop *** : Jc Jd Ah
4KingsBen : Check
Reeeshah : Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 250 | Rake: 0
Board: [ Jc Jd Ah ]
Moldranx lost 0
BurnleyJoe lost 0
joejoejones lost 0
readie lost 0
beamafpat05 lost 50
4KingsBen bet 100, collected 250, net 150
D4ZZLER007 lost 0
Reeeshah lost 100

Hand T4-66409364-74, Started at 27/04/2008 15:47 (EDT)
Table 'Cardiff': 100-100 No Limit HE (TournamentChips)
Seat 0: Moldranx (915 in chips)
Seat 1: BurnleyJoe (840 in chips)
Seat 2: joejoejones (705 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 3: readie (2,350 in chips)
Seat 5: beamafpat05 (475 in chips)
Seat 6: 4KingsBen (745 in chips)
Seat 7: D4ZZLER007 (2,555 in chips)
Seat 9: Reeeshah (21,415 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
readie : Post Blind (50)
beamafpat05 : Post Blind (100)
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: 6d
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: 2c
*** Pre-Flop *** :
4KingsBen : Fold
D4ZZLER007 : Fold
Reeeshah : Call (100)
Moldranx : Fold
BurnleyJoe : Fold
joejoejones : Fold
readie : Fold
beamafpat05 : Check
*** Flop *** : 8s 7h Jh
beamafpat05 : Check
Reeeshah : Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 250 | Rake: 0
Board: [ 8s 7h Jh ]
Moldranx lost 0
BurnleyJoe lost 0
joejoejones lost 0
readie lost 50
beamafpat05 bet 100, collected 250, net 150
4KingsBen lost 0
D4ZZLER007 lost 0
Reeeshah lost 100

Both cases the players were sitting out

[Burnley Joe]

Hand T4-66409364-75, Started at 27/04/2008 15:48 (EDT)
Table 'Cardiff': 100-100 No Limit HE (TournamentChips)
Seat 0: Moldranx (915 in chips)
Seat 1: BurnleyJoe (840 in chips)
Seat 2: joejoejones (705 in chips)
Seat 3: readie (2,300 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 5: beamafpat05 (625 in chips)
Seat 6: 4KingsBen (745 in chips)
Seat 7: D4ZZLER007 (2,555 in chips)
Seat 9: Reeeshah (21,315 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
beamafpat05 : Post Blind (50)
4KingsBen : Post Blind (100)
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: 10h
Dealt to BurnleyJoe: 7c
*** Pre-Flop *** :
D4ZZLER007 : Fold
Reeeshah : Call (100)
Moldranx : Fold
BurnleyJoe : Fold
joejoejones : Fold
readie : Fold
beamafpat05 : Fold
4KingsBen : Check
*** Flop *** : 8c Qh 7d
4KingsBen : Check
Reeeshah : Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 250 | Rake: 0
Board: [ 8c Qh 7d ]
Moldranx lost 0
BurnleyJoe lost 0
joejoejones lost 0
readie lost 0
beamafpat05 lost 50
4KingsBen bet 100, collected 250, net 150
D4ZZLER007 lost 0
Reeeshah lost 100

[SteveO]

A very shrewd tactic which I would never have thought of as I'd just steal the blinds, I can see it's merits though. A great piece of thinking on Rees' part I think but I can see how the other players would have been p***** at this.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by morlspin

LOL@ FOLD EQUITY!!!

They are sat out.....he cant lose, therefore has no fold equity.

By increasing his own chances of winning, isnt he then not also increasing the sit outs chances of winning too? (more points means more money)

Its chip dumping, maybe not in the eyes of pokerrooms terms and conditions, but its chip dumping all the same

Your fold equity against the other active players They cannot take on the big stack whilst the sitouts are still there.....

The Sit Out having an increased chance of winning is a by product of maximising my chances, not the goal, and that for me is the critical distinction