The Mole

[JulioArca]

Respect

Nice to see someone win more in one hand than I win in a year !

Respect

[morlspin]

Originally Posted by the mole

Aye probably i just look a little in front at a time, but i reckon i will go to the newcastle one.

nice one, be good to get a proper conversation with you for once!

[the mole]

Originally Posted by morlspin

nice one, be good to get a proper conversation with you for once!

Aye agreed you always seem to be drunk when i meet you

[the mole]

This hand shows my confidence is back, These are the type of hands i win a lot, i know he can,t be strong mid pair at most and i have a draw + 2 overs, showing no weakness makes it hard for him to call the river bet. This is not one of my bigger hands but an important one nevertheless



***** Hand 1045156755 *****
10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 18 April 2008 17:38:22
Table TH 694 (Real /Cash Game )
Seat 2: tioseba (5837.61)
Seat 3: BluffU_89 (2656.25)
Seat 4: the_mole (3824.00)
Seat 5: Jomibakku (1970.00)
tioseba post SB 10.00
BluffU_89 post BB 20.00
** Deal **
tioseba [N/A, N/A]
BluffU_89 [N/A, N/A]
the_mole [Ad, Jc]
Jomibakku [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
the_mole Raise to 70.00
Jomibakku Call 70.00
tioseba Fold
BluffU_89 Fold
*** Flop(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
the_mole Bet 140.00
Jomibakku Call 140.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s, 7c]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
the_mole Bet 420.00
Jomibakku Call 420.00
*** River(Board): *** : [5c, 2h, 4s, 7c, Kc]
*** Bet Round 4 ***
the_mole Bet 967.50
Jomibakku Fold
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 3.00 Total Pot: 1287.00
tioseba Fold Win: 0.00
BluffU_89 Fold Win: 0.00
the_mole By default Win: 1287.00
Jomibakku Fold Win: 0.00

[Football-Tipper]

Yeah I was watching this hand, must take alot of balls to fire that final bullet

[the mole]

I am sure this hand will cause some discussions, my thoughts were he had 89 or qk there was no way i thought i was behind and i had outs.


***** Hand 1050550592 *****
10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 22 April 2008 16:52:52
Table TH 100 (Real /Cash Game )
Seat 1: apan54 (504.37)
Seat 2: Roswita (1851.25)
Seat 3: sampey (900.00)
Seat 4: Fredewp (9127.19)
Seat 5: the_mole (1970.00)
apan54 post SB 10.00
Roswita post BB 20.00
** Deal **
apan54 [N/A, N/A]
Roswita [N/A, N/A]
sampey [N/A, N/A]
Fredewp [N/A, N/A]
the_mole [Qc, As]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
sampey Call 20.00
Fredewp Fold
the_mole Raise to 80.00
apan54 Fold
Roswita Fold
sampey Call 80.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
sampey Bet 280.00
the_mole Call 280.00
*** Turn(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
sampey All-in 540.00
the_mole Call 540.00
*** River(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s, 3d]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 3.00 Total Pot: 1827.00
apan54 Fold Win: 0.00
Roswita Fold Win: 0.00
sampey [8s, 9s] Pair of threes Win: 0.00
Fredewp Fold Win: 0.00
the_mole [Qc, As] Pair of threes , ace kicker Win: 1827.00

[AlunB]

Interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Is it based on knowledge of that specific player that he wouldn't play top pair (or an underpair/mid pair) that way?

[the mole]

Originally Posted by AlunB

Interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Is it based on knowledge of that specific player that he wouldn't play top pair (or an underpair/mid pair) that way?

Well if you read this hand properly i think its easy to come to the same conclusion that i did, he flat calls, i raise, he calls so right away you can rule out a lot of hands.Now he leads out with an over bet to the pot why? when he knows i am likley to put in a continuation bet, and if he is strong why the over bet? so right away i reckon he must be on a draw. turn is a blank he has now forced himself to move all in, and with this all in i am now positive he has 89 or qk so its an easy call.

What other hands could you put him on?

[AlunB]

LOL. Am not questioning your poker knowledge mate - I just meant what I said in that I was interested to know how you got to the conclusion. Your thought process is way more interesting than mine.

Just wondered why you ruled out something like QJ or that he would never fast play something like 44 or 10J. I don't play these stakes so I don't know. I must admit I did just scan read it and missed the size of the overbet so most of my initial comments don't apply.

Edit: I was also wondering what your history was with this player. And if you rated him.

[GotaFancy?]

Wow - that's one heck of a call

I confess I had to chuck the cards into Pokerstove to be sure you were ahead when the money went in - you were - 57% v 43% (but if you knew his cards obviously had pretty good odds to call even if behind)

[Valiant23]

Didn't you even consider that he could have been on J10?

[the mole]

Originally Posted by AlunB

LOL. Am not questioning your poker knowledge mate - I just meant what I said in that I was interested to know how you got to the conclusion. Your thought process is way more interesting than mine.

Just wondered why you ruled out something like QJ or that he would never fast play something like 44 or 10J. I don't play these stakes so I don't know. I must admit I did just scan read it and missed the size of the overbet so most of my initial comments don't apply.

Edit: I was also wondering what your history was with this player. And if you rated him.

Sorry Alun if it sounded as though i came over all defensive.

I thought this would be an interesting one to post as i didnt think anybody would see it like i did. but when i explain it all it should be pretty clear.

44 - no way has he got a set as he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot.

QJ - slight possibility of this but after i call the overbet what must he be thinking as i raised PF so therefore could have anything.

JT - again why the overbet ( maybe to take away me hitting a str) but its certainly not the way to get max value with such a strong hand.

The fact he made this overbet (out of turn) suggests he doesnt want a call, so therefore the only hands possible here is QK or 89. I dont see any other hand that fits how he played.

I have never played this guy before, so have no info on him. The only thing i will say is he is Italian

[GotaFancy?]

If this were the hand instead:

***** Hand 1050550592 *****
0.10/0.20 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 22 April 2008 16:52:52
Table TH 100 (Real /Cash Game )
Seat 1: apan54 (5.04)
Seat 2: Roswita (18.51)
Seat 3: sampey (9.00)
Seat 4: Fredewp (91.27)
Seat 5: Valiant23 (19.70)
apan54 post SB 0.10
Roswita post BB 0.20
** Deal **
apan54 [N/A, N/A]
Roswita [N/A, N/A]
sampey [N/A, N/A]
Fredewp [N/A, N/A]
Valiant23 [Qc, As]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
sampey Call 0.20
Fredewp Fold
Valiant23 Raise to 0.80
apan54 Fold
Roswita Fold
sampey Call 0.80
*** Flop(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
sampey Bet 2.80
Valiant23 Call 2.80
*** Turn(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
sampey All-in 5.40
Valiant23 Call 5.40
*** River(Board): *** : [10s, 4h, Jd, 3s, 3d]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 1.03 Total Pot: 18.27
apan54 Fold Win: 0.00
Roswita Fold Win: 0.00
sampey [8s, 9s] Pair of threes Win: 0.00
Fredewp Fold Win: 0.00
Valiant23 [Qc, As] Pair of threes , ace kicker Win: 18.27

THen I think I'd have been pretty dismissive of it and have said Mr V was a fish and a calling station and he should go away and read some Harrington

So it's only because it's you (and your proven track record) that it looks like genius instead of Fish/Calling Station - so any information you can give on your higher reasoning - your considerations - what went through your mind to arrive at the decision will I'm sure be really interesting to all of us

The bottom line seems to just be extreme confidence on your read of what he had - do you get it badly wrong very often?

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by the mole

44 - no way has he got a set as he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot.

Can a bluff only be by betting with little? Can you not also bluff by betting big with abig hand - for precisely the reasoning you suggest - to get your opponent to think "he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot"

There is also the flush draw on board - which makes slow playing trips dangerous - especially as you've been calling all the way (though not really with the odds to draw - implied or explicit)....

[the mole]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Can a bluff only be by betting with little? Can you not also bluff by betting big with abig hand - for precisely the reasoning you suggest - to get your opponent to think "he surley wouldnt spoil his chances of a double through by overbetting the pot"

There is also the flush draw on board - which makes slow playing trips dangerous - especially as you've been calling all the way (though not really with the odds to draw - implied or explicit)....

Fair enough for him to have a set and bluff me in this manner would just be fantastic play from him so he would deserve his double up ( but i still think this very unlikley)
The flush draw only appeared on the turn so why over bet the flop surley i would not call on the strength of runner runner.

I think poker is all about how we as individuals read the game, so the stakes dont always matter. If valiant played this hand at lower stakes as you have shown and explained why he ruled out the hands as ive done then yes i think its good play regardless of stakes ( he has made the proper read)

Yes i get things wrong sometimes but obviously i get them right more often, thats what makes me a winning player.

Dont you think the way i have explained this makes the lighlyhood of him having 89 or qk the most obvious ones? I think when the hand is broken down it must come clear.

[Slick Digital]

I would like to ask, I would have played the hand differently from his position, there are two ways I would have played it, interested to know how they may of paned out, also which would have been effective if either!!( I am forgetting the stake and pot value simply a chip))))

Play One

After calling Pre Flop.

Flop
I check.(holding 8-9)
you either Bet out - at which point I re-raise x2or3 or you check



Turn
regardless of above I bet out 65% against the pot - you either call/raise or fold
if you raise (upto 3x) I call.

River
I bet out All in - you either call or fold


Play 2

After calling pre flop

Flop
I bet 80 against the pot - you either call, fold or raise.
I would have called a re-raise

Turn
On adding to my stright draw with a flush draw I would have bet out 65% of pot. - you would either call, fold or raise
I would have called the re-raise

Flop
I would have bet all-in. you would either call or fold

Either way I would have played the hand for its strengths hoping you had not hit (against your pre flop raise, i know this is a gut play, but the strengths of my hand especially after the turn(although only outs!!) would have been strong enough for me to show a sign of strength at the first oppertunity.

I did not know how to copy the hand into this message, and hope he had 89 or spades or else this would have been a waste of time...and i am not a fast typer.......

[the mole]

I make my decisions with the info i have at the time and that was how i saw it.

He could have played this hand a number of ways as you suggest and won it, but the fact is he didnt so we can really only discuss the way it was played and how i read it.

I know there is a thin line between fishy/great calls but its how you read it in your head. A fishy call for me is when there is not much justification for making it and a great call is when your pretty sure you know exactly where you are.

[GotaFancy?]

I'm not attacking your play in any way - as I said - your track record is proven and beyond reproach - I want to learn from you (which is why I'm trying to probe)

Of course you're right in explaining away that he could put you on the flush draw because you called the overbet on the flop without large implied odds

[the mole]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

I'm not attacking your play in any way - as I said - your track record is proven and beyond reproach - I want to learn from you (which is why I'm trying to probe)

Of course you're right in explaining away that he could put you on the flush draw because you called the overbet on the flop without large implied odds

Again sorry if i come across as being annoyed at being probed, i put this hand on because i knew it would generate discussion and i am certainly not easily offended, so fire away as the idea of this is to help PL improve and see things from a different angle

[happyhornet]

I thought it was an excellent piece of thinking Mole, and perhaps shows the difference between us mere mortals and the best players. I've read through the hand history several times and although it is logical to follow how you came to that conclusion, we have the advantage of knowing what occured. I would have undoubtedly folded.