Chip passing

[rosco]

on the final table on friday night with 5 player left, about 235,000 chips in play.

anyway action puts 60k in the pot, player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now? the other player sat with 60k says no we will see flop. flop comes A 5 2.

bb bets 3k and the other player folds.

I look at the dealer and say thats close to chip passing, he says yeah very close, it goes quiet. the guys says yeah I knew he had an ace, later I found out he folded pocket kings.

nothing happened about this, what would anyone else do?

[Valiant23]

If it was live I'd ask for the manager.

Internet I'd report it.

[GotaFancy?]

It wasnt any form of Team event?

If not, definitely report it and hope the poker room investigate it properly....

[rosco]

it was a normal live event


the guy who runs the card room was dealing and there was another member of staff there too


the guy that folded ended up winning with a huge arrogance.

[Valiant23]

I don't think I'd leave it there.

What he did was 'save the last bet' as its termed in Barrys and its not allowed.

If it was in a casino I'd be making a complaint to the Casino Manager. If it wasn't then I wouldn't play there again.

[glceud]

Cheating plain and simple.

[goater14]

Blatant cheating.

[dik9]

Errrrrrm........ I think i am going to be slightly controversial here

This is a hard one to call for a TD, are you saying there was 60k in the pot? And he folded to a 3k bet whilst having enormous odds to call?
Speech is borderline, fold is borderline but no rules have actually been broken. If he passed the absolute nuts, action can be taken, as it happens with an ace on the flop (if he was holding KK) he was behind. Although very bad play, you cannot penalise someone for folding what they think is a losing hand. Although it is very pheasable to call it chip dumping, this particular play doesn't constitute a warning/action.

In the situation like this the TD should be looking at cards to make sure the folder didn't have nuts btw


nb
"Saving the last bet" is actually only a cash game breach as it cannot be done in comps, and is slightly different

[AJ]

Originally Posted by dik9

Errrrrrm........ I think i am going to be slightly controversial here

This is a hard one to call for a TD, are you saying there was 60k in the pot? And he folded to a 3k bet whilst having enormous odds to call?
Speech is borderline, fold is borderline but no rules have actually been broken. If he passed the absolute nuts, action can be taken, as it happens with an ace on the flop (if he was holding KK) he was behind. Although very bad play, you cannot penalise someone for folding what they think is a losing hand. Although it is very pheasable to call it chip dumping, this particular play doesn't constitute a warning/action.

In the situation like this the TD should be looking at cards to make sure the folder didn't have nuts btw


nb
"Saving the last bet" is actually only a cash game breach as it cannot be done in comps, and is slightly different

I'm going to agree, the player with 60k is under no obligation to raise further preflop. He's entitled to call / check and take a flop, regardless of how little the other guy has.

The Ace on the flop entitles the big stack with KK to fold with a clear mind. There is no rule that can force someone to call a bet when they reasonably consider themselves behind.

I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

[dico]

Hmmm not sure if it's cheating


It's very bad play but a similiar thing was happening in the laddies PL game and I wouldn't have accused anyone of cheating.

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by AJ

I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

Collusion/soft-playing.

Do we know for sure that the player was guilty of this? No, of course not, but
unless a player admits it, we never would. It's perfectly legal for a player to
make mind-bogglingly lunatic decisions so long as they're not motivated by
trying to advantage another player. In any case of suspected collusion, all
you can do is judge on the basis of the facts and previous history: you can
never be 100% sure.

Does this look suspicious? Yes, very. Even if he "knows" that the other guy
has an ace, the enormous pot odds make this an easy call unless it's AA or
AK.

I don't know what the general standards are in situations like this for the
level of evidence required to take action. It seems reasonable that a single
incident like this would not merit action (people do very stupid things
without malice sometimes), but it also seems reasonable to report incidents
like this in case these two players have a history of soft-playing each other
or do so in the future.

[Valiant23]

If Rich says its not cheating then I guess it isn't.

But.

anyway action puts 60k in the pot, player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now? the other player sat with 60k says no we will see flop. flop comes A 5 2.

3 handed and one player has KK? I don't know of any player on this earth who would say 'lets see a flop' in that situation.


I'm assuming this from Rich's post, but I guess that the dealer has the right to look at mucked hands if he suspects something fishy going on? What if Ross objects? Does the dealer have to look at the mucked hands to make sure nothing fishy has gone on?

What if the guy who claimed to have KK actually had an Ace?

[Valiant23]

Just to add.... I've played loads of games against PLers and the following scenario has occurred.

I've had a decent hand and there has been other aggressors in the pot, one of them a PLer. The aggression has driven out the non PLer and the flop (or turn) brings down an Ace. Now both players (both PLers) are scared by this card and decide that they don't fancy their hands quite so much and so betting slows down (sometimes ending in a check-fest).

I guess this could look like soft-playing to others.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by Valiant23

If Rich says its not cheating then I guess it isn't.

But.


3 handed and one player has KK? I don't know of any player on this earth who would say 'lets see a flop' in that situation.


I'm assuming this from Rich's post, but I guess that the dealer has the right to look at mucked hands if he suspects something fishy going on? What if Ross objects? Does the dealer have to look at the mucked hands to make sure nothing fishy has gone on?

What if the guy who claimed to have KK actually had an Ace?

Because exposing a losing hand gives information to an opponent, players may be reluctant to expose their hands until after their opponents have done so and will muck their losing hands without exposing them. Robert's Rules of Poker state that the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand, otherwise the first player to the left of the dealer button is the first to show the hand. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot. To speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that is eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the hand has been mucked. This option is generally only used when a player suspects collusion or some other sort of cheating by other players. When the privilege is abused by a player (i.e. the player does not suspect cheating, but asks to see the cards just to get insight on another player's style or betting patterns), he may be warned by the dealer, or even removed from the table. ^[1]

So even if you fold preflop, you have an absolute right to view all the players cards at the showdowwn. Even if someone mucks their hand at the showdown, you have a right to see their cards. Ask the dealer, they will not refuse.

It's pretty bad ettiquite though

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by AJ

So even if you fold preflop, you have an absolute right to view all the players cards at the showdowwn. Even if someone mucks their hand at the showdown, you have a right to see their cards. Ask the dealer, they will not refuse.

I don't think that applies here, though. Because the player folded to the 3k
bet on the flop, there wasn't any showdown.

[glceud]

Originally Posted by AJ

I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

All forms of gambling have a multitude of unwritten rules all to do with honurable behaviour.

Too many people out there look at poker, Horse racing, greyhounds etc as a oppurtunity to "scam" others and there is as far as I can see no other possible explanation for the play here.

With regards to the original question "what would I do?"

I would never play at the card room again.
I would name the card room here.
I would name the players here too.

Protect the rest of the poker community from cheats like this.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by slapdash

I don't think that applies here, though. Because the player folded to the 3k
bet on the flop, there wasn't any showdown.

I know, but in this case I think you could raise the issue with the TD, who would examine the players cards and make a decision on collusion. I recall a story related to this a while back, when a player folded Quad Queens on the turn against his brother in law who was all in at a bubble situation. He claimed he thought he was behind to a straight flush. The turn gave him quads, but put a third running diamond on the board.

Another player complained, the TD investigated and gave the guy with quads a penalty

[dik9]

I need to go to bed, but will respond to all questions if I have time before work this afternoon. It would be nice to know ALL the details from the OP first i.e. how big were the blinds, how did the pot get to 60k? What action there was to get to 60k, i presume there must have been action if only 235k on table with 5 left, who made the actions and why the BB had an oportunity to raise 3k, and whom would you like to punish? The guy who didn't bet his 3k pre or the guy who didn't call post or both?

[rosco]

To answer a few questions

It was the Grovenor Riverside in Manchester, to anyone who does not know of it, its a bit of a rough casino.

blinds were 2k 4k I think raised to 10k in first position, everyone folds to BB who re-raised all in (pot limit) its called, once counted the bb had 3k left thats when he was asked only 3k all left all in.

the guy in bb had the 3k to push in his hands ready to drop when the flop came, which he did, the other guy immidiately folded.

I was astounded and looking at the dealer, effectively the card room manager. No-one else said anything and I was a bit shocked. Once I said something the cards had been collected.

I really dont see the advantage of the fold unless he had 6 10 or a rubbish hand like that and didnt want to show what he was raising with.

as we had finished the came came upto me and said I play alot of heads up online so I am really good at it. (by the way he was very lucky everytime we were all in I was going in ahead, the second to last time was my aj against his a8) to which I replied not very good are you. He was very arrogant, all the way through, the girl next to me really didnt like him.

[dik9]

Right, thanks for giving slightly more information Rosco, the fact it is pot limit explains a few things that concerned me. So action had finished for that round and the BB was basically saying after reraising the pot that he wants to put remainder 3k in, which is normal as he hasn't got a BB left ......expecting the other player to instantly call as it is unlikely he would fold for such a little amount.

"player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now?"

So the BB wants to get his money in and is prepared for a showdown, indicating strength. Cannot penalise him for doing anything wrong here.

The other person in the pot says

"no we will see flop" Which he is fully entitled to do but indicates weakness and doesn't want his hand revealed, I very much doubt he had KK but lets just say that is what he had. The Ace on the flop probably puts KK behind, despite massive odds to call. There is no way I can penalise him for folding here!! I would probably mock his play in the staffroom for a few weeks though.

Look at it another way for those that think it is dumping to keep a mate in etc.

"blinds were 2k 4k I think raised to 10k in first position, everyone folds to BB who re-raised all in (pot limit) its called, once counted the bb had 3k left thats when he was asked only 3k all left all in."


265k in play average is 53k If BB wins he gets 2k(sb) + 4k(bb) + 10k(utg) + 28(bb) + utg call of 22k= 66k pot and the other player will be left with 60k ish. If this extra 3k went in it would take the BB up to 72k if he won and UTG down to 57k.

As there were 5 players left in (presumably paid top 5?) 2 players just above average is -EV against a cash out and a chip lead (that if the BB was to dump the other way around eg to UTG he would have a massive chip lead and be favourite to win) that had a great chance of winning!

This would be a stupid dump and a fairly stupid play by UTG (but it may have it's merits strangly enough), as far as I can see

Quote:

All forms of gambling have a multitude of unwritten rules all to do with honurable behaviour.

Too many people out there look at poker, Horse racing, greyhounds etc as a oppurtunity to "scam" others and there is as far as I can see no other possible explanation for the play here.

With regards to the original question "what would I do?"

I would never play at the card room again.
I would name the card room here.
I would name the players here too.

Protect the rest of the poker community from cheats like this.

I am completely impartial to this situation, and non-punishment would happen in any cardroom I ruled this in, I would hope you felt happy with this ruling, but disappointed that you would never play in a cardroom I run (because you would either think me incompetant, incapable or a cheat)