You make the play

[GotaFancy?]

You're on the Button.
There is no Small Blind
Your stack is 16xBB
Everyone folds to Cut Off who Limps
You have a pair of fives
What do you do?


***** Hand 1007439026 *****
75.00/150.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:55:07 PM
Poker League (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: _a2s3_ (2213.00)
Seat 2: Mike Ho (2095.00)
Seat 3: 960martin (2145.00)
Seat 4: PLkip6 (2630.00)
Seat 5: Obiwan_66 (1700.00)
Seat 6: fränki77 (1715.00)
Seat 7: PLSteveO (3502.00)
Seat 8: PLTelepee (2390.00)
_a2s3_ post BB 150.00
** Deal **
_a2s3_ [N/A, N/A]
Mike Ho [N/A, N/A]
960martin [N/A, N/A]
PLkip6 [N/A, N/A]
Obiwan_66 [N/A, N/A]
fränki77 [N/A, N/A]
PLSteveO [N/A, N/A]
PLTelepee [5h, 5c]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Mike Ho Fold
960martin Fold
PLkip6 Fold
Obiwan_66 Fold
fränki77 Fold
PLSteveO Call 150.00

[AJ]

3 or 4 x BB raise to blind steal is my gut reaction

but perhaps the lack of a small blind impacts the value calculation, I'd probably flat call and hope to make my set on the flop

[JulioArca]

Raise it up 3x BB

[happyhornet]

Flat call. Hope to hit the set. You have position, call and see how it pans out.

[JulioArca]

Why call and give BB free cards?
BB checks his option with 36o and flop comes 245
cut off raises with A3o and you have a set of 5's with the worst hand!
Raising could clear out the BB and cutoff (unless he is slow playing a monster) and if the BB or cutoff comes over the top then you can throw it away. Anyhow once you dont get a set you're pretty much done with the hand if faced with action.

[ubermonkey1]

if i was going to raise i would make it 5xbb ,i think 3x bb is giving steveo way too much value to call
2xbb to call for a 7xbb pot and he must have at least a good drawing hand to have called in the first place,if he had nowt he would have raised i think.

this is one of those hands that any option is ok.

a fold isnt crazy because you are at best 50 50 vs a n other.

a flat call is ok to either hit your 5 or steal on the flop.

a raise is ok, but like i say i would make it bigger to see if steveo really has a hand or not.

i would be worried about him possibly slo playing here so i would probably flat call and hope for a 5 or try a pot sized bet on a checked flop.

[dudeman99]

I may be a poker muppet, but I reckon the best move here is the raise to 4 x BB.

He doesn't show strength, you have position, plus with a low pair you are better than a coin flip to win against any random hand. You definitely want to win the pot here and now and not give him a shot at any overcards to beat you.

Of course, we don't know how crafty he has been on previous hands, but I feel that my move in the scenario as it stands is the right play.

[GotaFancy?]

***** Hand 1007439026 *****
75.00/150.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:55:07 PM
Poker League (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: _a2s3_ (2213.00)
Seat 2: Mike Ho (2095.00)
Seat 3: 960martin (2145.00)
Seat 4: PLkip6 (2630.00)
Seat 5: Obiwan_66 (1700.00)
Seat 6: fränki77 (1715.00)
Seat 7: PLSteveO (3502.00)
Seat 8: PLTelepee (2390.00)
_a2s3_ post BB 150.00
** Deal **
_a2s3_ [N/A, N/A]
Mike Ho [N/A, N/A]
960martin [N/A, N/A]
PLkip6 [N/A, N/A]
Obiwan_66 [N/A, N/A]
fränki77 [N/A, N/A]
PLSteveO [N/A, N/A]
PLTelepee [5h, 5c]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Mike Ho Fold
960martin Fold
PLkip6 Fold
Obiwan_66 Fold
fränki77 Fold
PLSteveO Call 150.00
PLTelepee Raise 600.00
_a2s3_ Fold
PLSteveO Raise 2400.00

What now?

[Fonzie14(BPP)]

I think you've got to let it go, you asked the question and got the answer...he was slow playing a monster. (Unless it's a double bluff???). But I think with 55, I,d let it go.

[ColU_FC]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

What now?

Brown trousers time.

I fold with my tail between my legs since I'm pretty sure he's got a bigger PP than me. I'm left with 1790 chips which is enough to wait for a better spot.

[happyhornet]

Yep, you have got to fold here. SteveO is a very good player and is more than capable of re-raising on a bluff here, but I think you have to give him credit for a big hand here.

[ubermonkey1]

yeah fold for me
at best your racing, but i would guess aa or kk .

you have enough to fold and still be ok ,so thats what i'd do.

[goater14]

Gut feeling i think Steve is making a move on you, knowing if he limped you were going to raise (mainly because you both no each others game).
I think you gotta fold though at best your be in a coin flip as he,s likely to be holding 2 overcards if he is bluffing or your gonna be a big underdog with a bigger pk pair.

[GotaFancy?]

What if the hand had been:

***** Hand 1007439026 *****
75.00/150.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:55:07 PM
Poker League (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: _a2s3_ (2213.00)
Seat 2: Mike Ho (2095.00)
Seat 3: 960martin (2145.00)
Seat 4: PLkip6 (2630.00)
Seat 5: Obiwan_66 (1700.00)
Seat 6: fränki77 (1715.00)
Seat 7: PLSteveO (3502.00)
Seat 8: PLTelepee (2390.00)
_a2s3_ post BB 150.00
** Deal **
_a2s3_ [N/A, N/A]
Mike Ho [N/A, N/A]
960martin [N/A, N/A]
PLkip6 [N/A, N/A]
Obiwan_66 [N/A, N/A]
fränki77 [N/A, N/A]
PLSteveO [N/A, N/A]
PLTelepee [5h, 5c]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Mike Ho Fold
960martin Fold
PLkip6 Fold
Obiwan_66 Fold
fränki77 Fold
PLSteveO Call 150.00
PLTelepee Call 150.00
_a2s3_ Check
*** Flop *** [2c, 4d, 8s]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
_a2s3_ Check
PLSteveO Check
PLTelepee ?????

[Fonzie14(BPP)]

Ok, no show of strength preflop and a pretty safe looking board so far,
pot is at 450 so I'd bet about 300. This may take the pot down or if not I will at least gain info depending on if I get called or raised.

Don't see any point in giving a free card as I may well have best of it at the moment.

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by goater14

Gut feeling i think Steve is making a move on you, knowing if he limped you were going to raise (mainly because you both no each others game).
I think you gotta fold though at best your be in a coin flip as he,s likely to be holding 2 overcards if he is bluffing or your gonna be a big underdog with a bigger pk pair.

Goater you were spot on mate, I'm very impressed.

[SteveO]

Ok the hand I had lads was Qc Jc. Now usually I'd raise with this kind of hand from the cut off but I know that Gaf is likely to shove over the top and he knows I will lay a weak hand down.

So I decide to limp and if he does raise I'll shove over the top and I know he's good enough to lay it down. I think he would lay down AJ or lower and mid pairs and lower but weaker opponents won't let these hands go.

If he does have a hand when I shove I will still have enough chips left to still be in with a shout.

This hand is an example of how the opponents left to act after you has a big im pact on decision making.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by goater14

Gut feeling i think Steve is making a move on you, knowing if he limped you were going to raise (mainly because you both no each others game).

Originally Posted by happyhornet

SteveO is a very good player and is more than capable of re-raising on a bluff here,

Originally Posted by Steve'O

Now usually I'd raise with this kind of hand from the cut off but I know that Gaf is likely to shove over the top and he knows I will lay a weak hand down.

So I decide to limp and if he does raise I'll shove over the top and I know he's good enough to lay it down. I think he would lay down AJ or lower and mid pairs and lower but weaker opponents won't let these hands go.

Of course I'm aware of a lot of this
The blinds are getting high, stacks are getting low. Pressure is mounting. Everyone has folded to the last 3 players, so hand strengths go up.
I'm out of position post flop, so not especially keen to play a post flop game (especially against SteveO and R2D2, clearly very competent players)

I can limp, and assuming the BB doesn't get frisky, I probably still end up laying down (what is probably the best hand pre flop) when 7 times out of 8 I dont hit my trips.

I'm scared to raise though - I'm vulnerable to a reraise or a post flop bet, both of which I probably have to fold my hand to.

I'm prepared to take my chances and shove all in. An overbet, but saving myself a very vulnerable post flop situation.

If someone calls with two overcards, I'm happy to take my chances in a race at this stage of the tournament for the chance to double up.
If someone folds two overcards, I've saved myself the tough post flop situation and boosted my stack by 15 to 20 percent without a showdown.
If someone calls with an overpair to me, so be it, c'est la vie! But there probably isn't an overpair out there.

[JulioArca]

OK so you raised 3 or 4 bb and he came over the top, I would fold having defined some sort of hand and not knowing the opponents tendencies to come over the top with QJ. The question I have for you GaF is what would you do if you knew he had QJ ?

[GotaFancy?]

No - SteveO limped for 150 and I shoved all in (removing any opportunity for him to come over the top of me, and negating the disadvantage of being out of position post flop, whilst also removing any more tough choices for me, where I'm not going to particularly like making them)

If I knew he had QJ and he didn't know I had 55, then I would certainly shove. I would probably shove too, even if he knew I had 55.