Are you calling or folding?

[RB]

Game Details Game Number 2696937401 Table Name The Four Dartsmen - Game 4 Week 5 Table Type Multi Table Tournament Bet Limit No Limit Time Start 2 Jul 2009 7:46 PM Time End 2 Jul 2009 7:47 PM Active Players 8 Table Stakes 0.50 / 1.00 Table Blinds 0.25 / 0.50 Rake 0.00

Opening Betting Round No Community Cards Players Cards Actions Ricky40 (D) - Folded - - - ToffeePete SB 75.00 Called 770.00 - - - rulebPL BB 150.00 Called 695.00 - - - BlindPincher Went All-In 845.00 - - - - I_LIIIIKE Folded - - - - lamornababe Folded - - - - goonner123 Folded - - - - 666evil Folded - - - - Total Pot 2,535.00 Flop Betting Round Players Cards Actions Ricky40 (D) - - - - - ToffeePete Bet 600.00 Player Betting Money Returned 600.00 - - -

Have discussed this particular hand with Pete, and there is arguments on both sides for calling and for folding on this particular occasion.

Just interested to know what the general concensus would be on whether or not to call or fold here. (or re-raise I guess)

[staffy]

With limited info i am probably folding.

[AJ]

Would need to know stack sizes to be sure, but blindpincher is already all in so that adds value to the pot. Without stack sizes I have no idea of M and how committed your are to the pot. Can't say, may fold.

Why not push all in over the top of Pete preflop is the better question I think ?

That's what I'd have done

[RB]

Originally Posted by AJ

Would need to know stack sizes to be sure, but blindpincher is already all in so that adds value to the pot. Without stack sizes I have no idea of M and how committed your are to the pot. Can't say, may fold.

Why not push all in over the top of Pete preflop is the better question I think ?

That's what I'd have done

Pete has til this point been playing quite passively, only playing when on to something, so for that reason, I was happy to flat call and hope to avoid an A on the flop, as Im pretty certain that Pete has A high/medium kicker. By flat calling and not going over the top of him, I was hoping he wouldnt possibly put me on KK and if avoiding the A on the flop, this would give me some sort of advantage. Backfired though with the A appearing and leaving me with a tough decision.....

As for the other questions, as you can see the blinds are 75/150 and Im fairly certain Pete had around 3.5k and I had around 4k.

[GaF]

As already said - impossible to give meaningful thoughts without stack sizes - they are critical!!

I also agree that you should have reraised pre flop - you've got Kings - get some money in the pot - you can't play it passively against 2 opponents!! If you were heads up, you can maybe put an argument forward for occasionally playing passively, however multiway, it's gotta be a raise pre flop IMO.

Given that you are in the situation you are in - I almost certainly fold, however if stack sizes are short enough I may find myself committed even if I put him on an ace). I reckon a queen will be an out (to at least a split) and a king will sometimes be an out. I'm in the region of 25% to hit a queen or a king - sometimes it still wont be good - so I probably need about 10-1 (and all in - so no further bets) to call. With your stack estimates, I have to fold if I put him with some confidence on an Ace.

[SteveO]

You should have shoved allin Pre Rb there's 1770 in the pot which would increase you stack by nearly 50%. By flatcalling you are just giving Pete the chance to hit is hand, or were you afraid he would call allin with a high ace and you were afraid of getting knocked out?

You weren't really to know he had a high ace, he could easily have had a medium pair and if he has aces well it's just bad luck.

[GaF]

Originally Posted by SteveO

or were you afraid he would call allin with a high ace and you were afraid of getting knocked out?

KK is about 70% against Ax
- if you shove and he folds you're not too upset - you're heads up against an almost certain inferior hand to boost your stack by about 1850 (only risking 845
- if you shove and he calls, you're not too upset either - sure 1 time in 3 he'll outdraw you and you're out - but 2 times out of 3 you'll bet him (and probably the other guy too) and be in a far stronger position with about 8000 chips

[Samba_SamPa]

Here's the stack sizes matey

-------------

** Hand # 2696937401 starting - 2009-07-02 20:50:53
** The Four Dartsmen - Game 4 Week 5[3023536]:Table 1 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (150.00|300.00 NL - MTT) Real Money

Ricky40 sitting in seat 1 with 3010.00[Dealer]
ToffeePete sitting in seat 3 with 1935.00
rulebPL sitting in seat 4 with 4105.00
BlindPincher sitting in seat 5 with 845.00
I_LIIIIKE sitting in seat 6 with 2200.00
lamornababe sitting in seat 7 with 3380.00
goonner123 sitting in seat 8 with 2000.00
666evil sitting in seat 9 with 1820.00
ToffeePete posted the small blind - 75.00
rulebPL posted the big blind - 150.00

** Dealing cards to ToffeePete: ? ?
BlindPincher went all-in - 845.00
I_LIIIIKE folded
lamornababe folded
goonner123 folded
666evil folded
Ricky40 folded
ToffeePete called - 845.00
rulebPL called - 845.00

** Dealing the flop: Jd, 10h, As
ToffeePete bet - 600.00...

[AJ]

he has you covered by miles, it's an instapush preflop

[Samba_SamPa]

Originally Posted by AJ

he has you covered by miles, it's an instapush preflop

Getting confusing? lol

This was RuleB's thread - I just stuck up the chip counts from my HH as he wa soff on his guesstimates

He had the KK and he had me covered by a fair way.

For the record, if I were him I would have put me all-in preflop.

[AJ]

yeah, that's what i meant. RB has the chips to play the hand and survive. KK preflop with dead chips in the pot. Easy push.

Akthough has to fold post flop

[RB]

Originally Posted by Samba_SamPa

Here's the stack sizes matey

-------------

** Hand # 2696937401 starting - 2009-07-02 20:50:53
** The Four Dartsmen - Game 4 Week 5[3023536]:Table 1 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (150.00|300.00 NL - MTT) Real Money

Ricky40 sitting in seat 1 with 3010.00[Dealer]
ToffeePete sitting in seat 3 with 1935.00
rulebPL sitting in seat 4 with 4105.00
BlindPincher sitting in seat 5 with 845.00
I_LIIIIKE sitting in seat 6 with 2200.00
lamornababe sitting in seat 7 with 3380.00
goonner123 sitting in seat 8 with 2000.00
666evil sitting in seat 9 with 1820.00
ToffeePete posted the small blind - 75.00
rulebPL posted the big blind - 150.00

** Dealing cards to ToffeePete: ? ?
BlindPincher went all-in - 845.00
I_LIIIIKE folded
lamornababe folded
goonner123 folded
666evil folded
Ricky40 folded
ToffeePete called - 845.00
rulebPL called - 845.00

** Dealing the flop: Jd, 10h, As
ToffeePete bet - 600.00...

wow, I thought you had more than that

Looking back at it, and reading the statements from everyone else, I agree I should have pushed pre flop.

However, given I am now in this self inflicted position, what do I do?

[RB]

Can I just add..... 2 or 3 weeks ago when I was playing with utmost confidence, I would have insta pushed without a second's thought.

[Irishbugger]

I would've raised 1090, exact stack, he would've folded, pre-flop. I love raising ppl's exact stack when in position to do so. Ettiqutte? Lol, fook that, it's fun. Try it.