was this wrong

[daveygh(BPP)]

i was small blind , blinds 100/200 no raises but got slated for calling this even tho i lost
was i silly to call?



***** Hand 1088807080 *****
100.00/200.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 20 May 2008 20:21:45
VRoll Satellite (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: 1eggster (1300.00)
Seat 2: Fonzie141 (4350.00)
Seat 3: daveygh1 (1500.00)
Seat 4: Dragon64 (1965.00)
Seat 6: Fiona4 (650.00)
Seat 7: gatesy88 (715.00)
Seat 9: ImMrMuscle (2475.00)
Seat 10: ooblio (2323.00)
daveygh1 post SB 100.00
Dragon64 post BB 200.00
** Deal **
1eggster [N/A, N/A]
Fonzie141 [N/A, N/A]
daveygh1 [4h, 7h]
Dragon64 [N/A, N/A]
Fiona4 [N/A, N/A]
gatesy88 [N/A, N/A]
ImMrMuscle [N/A, N/A]
ooblio [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Fiona4 Fold
gatesy88 Fold
ImMrMuscle Call 200.00
ooblio Call 200.00
1eggster Fold
Fonzie141 Fold
daveygh1 Call 200.00
Dragon64 Check
*** Flop(Board): *** : [4s, 5c, 4c]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
daveygh1 All-in 1300.00
Dragon64 Fold
ImMrMuscle Call 1300.00
ooblio Fold
*** Turn(Board): *** : [4s, 5c, 4c, 5h]
*** River(Board): *** : [4s, 5c, 4c, 5h, 8c]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3600.00
1eggster Fold Win: 0.00
Fonzie141 Fold Win: 0.00
daveygh1 [4h, 7h] Full house Win: 0.00
Dragon64 Fold Win: 0.00
Fiona4 Fold Win: 0.00
gatesy88 Fold Win: 0.00
ImMrMuscle [7c, 6c] Straight flush Win: 3600.00
ooblio Fold Win: 0.00

[GotaFancy?]

7-1 on your money - I can understand the call (though I usually fold it) - and you got your dream flop That's why you call sometimes when getting 7-1

[Valiant23]

You got slated for that?


Ffs!

A lot of players have convinced me that I'm wasting a lot of chips by giving up the SB and that I should only muck the most unplayable hands (J2os for example). I always used to pass on my SB unless I had a real hand but got sick of the 'crap' hands that ended up hitting the nuts.

No complaints from me on your play there (in other words I agree with Gaf?).

[Hodgey]

I got slated on here for playing 74s in the BB a while back but I'm with Mr V with this one - I think it's worthwhile playing marginal hands from the blinds now and again.

I don't think you played it badly at all just got unlucky on the river.

[rosco]

I think so

did you not see the straight flush draw?????

[slapdash]

I probably wouldn't have called here, though it's marginal. I would call with
a larger stack, both because the upside is bigger if I do hit the flop, and
because with only 7 BB left, keeping an extra 100 chips could make all the
difference to my fold equity sometime soon. But I agree with everybody
else: to think that calling deserves a slating is absurd!

By the way, it's a little misleading to say that you have 7-1 pot odds. 7-1 pot
odds with four people seeing the flop is very different from 7-1 pot odds
with two people seeing the flop. I think what's important here is not so much
your chance of winning a showdown, but your chance of hitting a very good
flop, as you're almost certainly going to have to fold if you don't. I'd much
rather call here with 74s than with something like Q7o.

[SteveO]

I agree with Rosco that board is very scary with the str8 flush draw and paired board......

[Fonzie14]

I think it aws the pre-flop call that Davey was getting slated for (which with 7:1 odds to see a flop I can't fault). He was first to push post flop, which I totaly agree with.

If I remember rightly it was 'ImMrMuscle' who was mouthing off, and if its any consolation he went out in 12th place and winged on for about 10 mins afterwards.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by Steve'O

I agree with Rosco that board is very scary with the str8 flush draw and paired board......

No way I'm ever laying down trips on that board with such a small stack.....

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

No way I'm ever laying down trips on that board with such a small stack.....

CAUGHT 1................

[GotaFancy?]

[Nade]

With blinds and stacks as they are i would be in two minds, sometimes i'll call sometimes fold, i don't think it was 'wrong'.

But if i was to post a thread like this up i'd get 1 reponse saying it was a bad beat thread. That's how it goes down on here now.

[AJ]

I'd play it in a cash game, 7-1 your money is compelling.

but, and this a big but, it's not a cash game, it's a tourney, pretty late on. You don't have the stack size to play for value. Your out of position, your "M" is dead on 5. you're in the death zone, in this position you only have two choices, push or fold. you can't play poker anymore, you simply don't have the chips.

so, yeah for me, very very wrong

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by AJ

but, and this a big but, it's not a cash game, it's a tourney, pretty late on. You don't have the stack size to play for value. Your out of position, your "M" is dead on 5. you're in the death zone, in this position you only have two choices, push or fold. you can't play poker anymore, you simply don't have the chips.

I think this is a misapplication of a general principle. Certainly I'd agree that
normally when you're short-stacked in a tournament, you push or fold. But
that's because normally you'll pot-commit yourself if you make any bet, so
you may as well maximize your fold equity by going all-in.

But in this situation, you're not pot-committing yourself if you just complete
the small blind. If the big blind raises, you will presumably fold. Also, unless
you get a very good flop, you're presumably folding to any bet after the
flop. You're simply making a bet of one small blind, getting quite high odds,
that you'll hit the flop hard.

As I said, I don't think the odds I'd be getting are quite high enough that
I'd call, but I certainly don't think it's very wrong. Change the 74s to 65s
and I might well call.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by slapdash

I think this is a misapplication of a general principle. Certainly I'd agree that
normally when you're short-stacked in a tournament, you push or fold. But
that's because normally you'll pot-commit yourself if you make any bet, so
you may as well maximize your fold equity by going all-in.

But in this situation, you're not pot-committing yourself if you just complete
the small blind. If the big blind raises, you will presumably fold. Also, unless
you get a very good flop, you're presumably folding to any bet after the
flop. You're simply making a bet of one small blind, getting quite high odds,
that you'll hit the flop hard.

As I said, I don't think the odds I'd be getting are quite high enough that
I'd call, but I certainly don't think it's very wrong. Change the 74s to 65s
and I might well call.

I disagree, limping degrades his stack, not by a huge amount (7%), but it does degrade. His stack of chips is his only weapon at this stage; lets call it a hammer. Every time he limps he reduces the size of it.

He needs to use this hammer to steal pots, often without being called if possible. The smaller that hammer is, the less impact it has when he slams it down on the table, if it becomes any smaller he'll no longer be able to steal pots, an all-in will attract multiple callers that will check his bet down to the river as a value prop. Poker isn't all maths, it's about fear and greed. There is a psychological tipping point when his stack stops having any intimidation value and he's very very close to it. 100 chips could tip him over in some peoples mind.

I'm not arguing for the fold as such (although I'd most likely fold), but he's got through the blinds he can afford to wait a few hands before he needs to act. A flat call is the worst possible choice for me.

Also worth keeping in mind; he must act before the blinds increase, I don't know when this is, but he can't afford to pay another set of them.

A very clear Push or Fold moment for me.

Change the 74s to 65s and I push in a heartbeat.

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by AJ

I disagree, limping degrades his stack, not by a huge amount (7%), but it does degrade. His stack of chips is his only weapon at this stage; lets call it a hammer. Every time he limps he reduces the size of it.

He needs to use this hammer to steal pots, often without being called if possible. The smaller that hammer is, the less impact it has when he slams it down on the table, if it becomes any smaller he'll no longer be able to steal pots, an all-in will attract multiple callers that will check his bet down to the river as a value prop. Poker isn't all maths, it's about fear and greed. There is a psychological tipping point when his stack stops having any intimidation value and he's very very close to it. 100 chips could tip him over in some peoples mind.

I don't disagree with most of this. In fact, it's very similar to what I wrote in my first reply in this thread. Yes, the 100 chips have a non-trivial value, which has to be balanced against the potential value gained if you call and hit the flop.

I'm not arguing for the fold as such (although I'd most likely fold), but he's got through the blinds he can afford to wait a few hands before he needs to act. A flat call is the worst possible choice for me.

Also worth keeping in mind; he must act before the blinds increase, I don't know when this is, but he can't afford to pay another set of them.

A very clear Push or Fold moment for me.

Change the 74s to 65s and I push in a heartbeat.

I think this is a very bad time to push. Aside from the BB, who has yet to act, you are facing two players who have shown some strength by limping in early-mid position. The original limper in particular could easily have been slow-playing a big hand. And also, with chips from two limpers in the pot, anybody tempted to call is getting significantly better odds than if you waited to push until you could be first into the pot. And small suited connectors are not a great hand to shove with. They don't play particularly well against a single strong hand of the kind that might call, and since they don't contain any high cards it's a bit more likely that you will get called (if one of your opponents would call with a top 20% hand and you shove a hand with an ace, then the fact that he can't have that ace reduces the chance of him having a top 20% hand to about 18%: but if you have a hand like 65s, that increases the chance to about 21%).

One other minor point. This was in the Virgin V-Roll, which I think has a rather top-heavy payout structure (only the top 10 paid?), so tournament strategy should be a bit less different from cash game strategy than it would be in a tournament with a flatter payout structure.

[Glen1000]

A push at that point would have probably been best. A good chance to increase you stack by 40%. If someone calls you probably have live cards!

Did you call this with the intention of going all in regardless as you were first to act? If so not a bad play at all.

[Tweetypie05]

I don't mind the call. I can see reasons for not doing so but you're nearing the point where all your chips are going to go in the middle so, one last look before you get to this with odds of 7:1, I might well call. I think you were just unlucky that he hit one of his 2 outs on the river... as for the slating, ignore the fool.

However, as I went out on the bubble last night maybe I shouldn't answer this question!

[WASP]

Originally Posted by Nade

But if i was to post a thread like this up i'd get 1 reponse saying it was a bad beat thread. That's how it goes down on here now.

Too many in strategy IMO but it is considered impolite to suggest that apparently

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by WASP

Too many in strategy IMO but it is considered impolite to suggest that apparently

I think that's a little unfair in this case. I'd agree if it were an "I called his all-in with the nuts and he hit a runner-runner straight to knock me out. Should I have played it differently?" kind of post, which has no genuine strategy point. But here there was a legitimate question about the play.

I'd have preferred not to be given the outcome of the hand to begin with, though: just the situation when you have to decide what to do preflop.