Pocket Jacks

[Fonzie14]

I'm interested to know how you would of played this hand.



***** Hand 1108640418 *****
10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 04 June 2008 20:12:22
PLounge league (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: plSamba (2135.00)
Seat 2: PL-Fonzie (1900.00)
Seat 3: Redman10 (1900.00)
Seat 4: PLGriff (2030.00)
Seat 5: PLSteveO (1893.00)
Seat 6: PLTelepee (2181.00)
Seat 7: PLRIVRD (1679.00)
Seat 8: PLwarbirds (2112.00)
Seat 9: PLgoater14 (2170.00)
PLGriff post SB 10.00
PLSteveO post BB 20.00
** Deal **
plSamba [N/A, N/A]
PL-Fonzie [Jd, Js]
Redman10 [N/A, N/A]
PLGriff [N/A, N/A]
PLSteveO [N/A, N/A]
PLTelepee [N/A, N/A]
PLRIVRD [N/A, N/A]
PLwarbirds [N/A, N/A]
PLgoater14 [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
PLTelepee Fold
PLRIVRD Raise to 70.00
PLwarbirds Call 70.00
PLgoater14 Fold
plSamba Fold
PL-Fonzie Call 70.00
Redman10 Call 70.00
PLGriff Fold
PLSteveO Call 70.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 3d, 10d]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
PLSteveO Check
PLRIVRD Bet 360.00
PLwarbirds Fold
PL-Fonzie -???????

For those that know what happens next plz don't spoil it for the others

[Samba_SamPa]

I know how it turned out, so I don't know if that is clouding my judgement. I would have done what you done next, but then not what you done after that. I think! lol. If you follow? Don't want to spoil the outcome.

[Valiant23]

First level so there is no need to go bust.


Rivered's bet pre flop seems like a pot builder to me and disguises any strength pretty well. With three to act after you, why were you not tempted to define your hand and re-raise?

As it turns out we've got a family pot and the flop comes ten high, but with all kinds of problems. We have a flush draw and potential full houses. Rivered makes a strong post flop bet which suggests (to me) that Rivered has a big pocket pair and didn't want that many players going to the turn OR a strong flush draw.

However, I have a weakness for (pocket) overpairs and I'm calling here, hoping for a scare card to slow things down or a jack to give me the near nuts.

[Hodgey]

Originally Posted by Valiant23

However, I have a weakness for (pocket) overpairs and I'm calling here, hoping for a scare card to slow things down or a jack to give me the near nuts.

I too have a problem with pocket overpairs. I would probably go over the top here and get called and beaten by a higher pocket pair.

Reading it in the cold light of day and having time to think it looks to me as though RIVRD's bet is showing strength due to multiple callers and more than just a continuation bet. There are still 2 to act after you too so maybe fold and wait for a better spot seeing as it's very early in the tourney.

[puntalara]

This fish would reraise to 1,000 as JJ in my book is a bloody good hand and maybe he folds - if he comes over the top I am all in

[the mole]

I would have re raised pf to find out where i was and get rid of players ( perhaps holding a 3) but in this position i would min raise to see where im at now. The trick is to find out where you are as early as possible that way it costs you less and avoids you getting into awkward positions like this.

[Hodgey]

Originally Posted by the mole

I would have re raised pf to find out where i was and get rid of players ( perhaps holding a 3) but in this position i would min raise to see where im at now. The trick is to find out where you are as early as possible that way it costs you less and avoids you getting into awkward positions like this.

If you raise preflop and get re-raised all in then I guess you've found out where you are but then if you fold to the all-in you also miss out on the chance of seeing the flop cheaply and possibly making your set?

[WASP]

Probably would have re-raised PF to around 200 to get more info and slim the field, you really don't want to be 4 handed going into a flop with jacks.

Now I have seen the flop I feel I am behind (overpair or set) or against a heavy draw. I would probably fold here but if I was feeling lucky raise but I cannot see what a call can do for you.

[ubermonkey1]

Originally Posted by Hodgey

If you raise preflop and get re-raised all in then I guess you've found out where you are but then if you fold to the all-in you also miss out on the chance of seeing the flop cheaply and possibly making your set?

with a deeper stack that makes sense
but in a relatively short stacked game i would want to find out where i was for a bit less money ,so i would have taken it up to 250 ish.


i would guess jay has a similar hand to you ,maybe qs ks or even the other 2 js the only other possible hand might be a 10 but that seems a little unlikely in that position in a pl game.

i cant see he would be pushing in a bet like that unless he had an overpair but probably not aces,think its also unlikely he has a flush draw.
also i notice redman and steveo are still in and could be a danger still.so its a fold for me and wait for a better situation

[dashtonpvfc]

I would have definitely re-raised pre-flop to about 300 to narrow, then fold if any huge bet follows post-flop. What was the outcome??

[voiceofjoe]

I've no idea how it turned out but I'd probably have mucked there and then.

Pot sized bet second to act against 4 players, I'd chuck them - the fact that its very early in the tourney would have been a big consideration in my thought process.

I'm guessing he's protecting an overpair, with 2 diamonds out there - ??

QQ, KK - JJ would have also been a possibility if you hadn't got the other 2 in your hand.

I don't mind your call rather than the re-raise, when the blinds are smaller I'd rather play after the flop then re-raise and win a few chips - plus the first raise was UTG +1 so you'd expect him to be quite strong raising from that position.

[AJ]

Originally Posted by WASP

Probably would have re-raised PF to around 200 to get more info and slim the field, you really don't want to be 4 handed going into a flop with jacks.

Now I have seen the flop I feel I am behind (overpair or set) or against a heavy draw. I would probably fold here but if I was feeling lucky raise but I cannot see what a call can do for you.

saves me writing a more detailed reply, I agree with this in full

[Fonzie14]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I'm always unsure how to play pocket Js. I can see the logic in raising to try and get HU with them, but if a flop comes down with a couple of overcards, then I invariably end up mucking them having lost more chips due to reraising to get HU.

On this occasion I decided just to call ( at the time there were only 2 other players in the pot) and see a cheap flop, early in the game and no point going broke etc....

Anyway, I see what is a pretty good flop for JJ, no overcards, I think its unlikely that anyone is holding a 3 in a raised pot, only worry is the flush draw.

Rivrd puts out a pot size bet.....hmmmm

OK, he was pre-flop aggressor, making a continuation bet......

Hand range, don't think he has AA,KK as I think his PFR would of been bigger.

AK, AQ, AJ, QQ,TT all possible, ATsooted maybe, JJ possible but unlikely. I thought all lower pkt pairs at this stage as were unlikely (due to pot size bet).

decided to reraise to try and define where I was in the hand.....


*** Bet Round 2 ***
PLSteveO Check
PLRIVRD Bet 360.00
PLwarbirds Fold
PL-Fonzie Raise to 720.00
Redman10 Fold
PLSteveO Fold
PLRIVRD All-in 1609.00
PL-Fonzie Call 1609.00

Not sure why , but as soon as Rivrd moved in, I was sure he had AKd or ATd and was trying to push me off the pot....

Red mist descended.......and the rest, as they say, is history.




*** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 3d, 10d, 10s]
*** River(Board): *** : [3s, 3d, 10d, 10s, 6h]
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 3578.00
plSamba Fold Win: 0.00
PL-Fonzie [Jd, Js] Two pair jacks and tens Win: 0.00
Redman10 Fold Win: 0.00
PLGriff Fold Win: 0.00
PLSteveO Fold Win: 0.00
PLTelepee Fold Win: 0.00
PLRIVRD [Qs, Qd] Two pair queens and tens Win: 3578.00
PLwarbirds Fold Win: 0.00
PLgoater14 Fold Win: 0.00

I know I have a problem laying down big pairs, especially on what seems like a safe flop....guess it's something I'l have to work on.

Once again, thanks for your input.

[ubermonkey1]

Originally Posted by Fonzie14

Not sure why , but as soon as Rivrd moved in, I was sure he had AKd or ATd and was trying to push me off the pot....

most situations i would have him on the possible flush but with a paired board i dont think he would lead out with a draw,he might already be beat.
much more likely he already has a hand

[WASP]

I think the way he played screamed high pair

Originally Posted by Fonzie14

Hand range, don't think he has AA,KK as I think his PFR would of been bigger.

I'm not sure why you would think this a standard PFR is all that AA KK needs

[Fonzie14]

Originally Posted by WASP

I'm not sure why you would think this a standard PFR is all that AA KK needs

You may well be right Bri, but in my limited experience, I would say that people with AA or KK utg tend to put in a bigger raise, particularly during the early stages of online tourneys, when there tend to be a lot of very loose players about and there is a good chance that you will still get several callers.

Maybe not in this tourney however, as it was a PL exclusive.

[Valiant23]

Right....I've already said that I have a weakness for overpairs on a board like that, and having seen the river I have two questions/points.

1. Anyone got any suggestions as to how to get away? Bear in mind as soon as the action comes back to you (Fonzie) we have 30 seconds(?) to make a snap call.

2. I'm not pointing fingers at all, but am I the only one who really doesn't like RVRD's small raise in an early position? I ask because again, I've been guilty of doing the same thing and getting outdrawn in a family pot situation (and I think RVRD saw the dangers on the flop, hence the stronger betting).

[Nade]

Just a cold deck imo.

[voiceofjoe]

Originally Posted by Valiant23

Right....I've already said that I have a weakness for overpairs on a board like that, and having seen the river I have two questions/points.

1. Anyone got any suggestions as to how to get away? Bear in mind as soon as the action comes back to you (Fonzie) we have 30 seconds(?) to make a snap call.

2. I'm not pointing fingers at all, but am I the only one who really doesn't like RVRD's small raise in an early position? I ask because again, I've been guilty of doing the same thing and getting outdrawn in a family pot situation (and I think RVRD saw the dangers on the flop, hence the stronger betting).

Just my thoughts


Q1. You really should have an idea of what you think his hand is and what you're reaction will be to any possible action before he plays his cards. OK not as easy as I make it sound but what I'm trying to say is its not just the 30 secs after hes bet where you need to be thinking what your next move is. You should be thinking (or at least have an idea) what you might be doing on the flop, when you decide how your playing your cards pre-flop

Q2. 3 1/2 Times BB from Early position is hardly a small raise ? - just by raising from here your already saying I've got a decent hand. You raise more than that and what are you going to be called by ? If the blinds where large fair enough taking them is OK - but when they are so low then I want to see a flop (maybe not with quite as many players) - but the later positions where getting value to call and rivrd was just a little unlucky to get quite so many callers

[ubermonkey1]

Originally Posted by voiceofjoe

Just my thoughts


Q1. You really should have an idea of what you think his hand is and what you're reaction will be to any possible action before he plays his cards. OK not as easy as I make it sound but what I'm trying to say is its not just the 30 secs after hes bet where you need to be thinking what your next move is. You should be thinking (or at least have an idea) what you might be doing on the flop, when you decide how your playing your cards pre-flop

Q2. 3 1/2 Times BB from Early position is hardly a small raise ? - just by raising from here your already saying I've got a decent hand. You raise more than that and what are you going to be called by ? If the blinds where large fair enough taking them is OK - but when they are so low then I want to see a flop (maybe not with quite as many players) - but the later positions where getting value to call and rivrd was just a little unlucky to get quite so many callers

just what i was thinking

i would guess that if fonzie had raised pre flop riv would have reraised then
as joe said i wouldnt want to clear everybody out with qs or risk my tourney on them so early , i would want to find out where i was as early as possible so the raises are cheaper.