Playing low pairs on the final table

[dudeman99]

I seem to have a big leak where I play low-medium pairs too aggressively on the final table. Last week it was pocket deuces, just recently it was:

Full Tilt Poker Game #7958680435: $3 + $0.30 KO Sit & Go (60512599), Table 1 - 2000/4000 Ante 500 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:48:37 ET - 2008/09/06
Seat 1: arvinjr (25,597)
Seat 3: fredus82 (69,922)
Seat 5: MALO001 (49,464)
Seat 6: Hero (49,451)
Seat 9: cstratton (75,566)
arvinjr antes 500
fredus82 antes 500
MALO001 antes 500
Hero antes 500
cstratton antes 500
cstratton posts the small blind of 2,000
arvinjr posts the big blind of 4,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [7c 7s]
fredus82 folds
MALO001 calls 4,000
Hero raises to 12,000
cstratton calls 10,000
arvinjr folds
MALO001 folds
*** FLOP *** [Ks Kd 2c]
cstratton checks

*will post the rest of the hand after a couple of replies

Your play here?

[Fonzie14(BPP)]

Is this one of the FT 90 seater SNG's? If so then you are already ITM.


What does the SB do first?

[dudeman99]

Small blind checks, I have him down as a TAG player despite being the big stack.

[Fonzie14(BPP)]

Villain is the big stack and has called a button raise, so could have a wide range. You still have 36K and even if you have to lay it down you are still not the shortstack, so I think I also check. If he has a K, he will check raise and you have to muck. But by checking you give yourself another chance to hit your 7 and he still doesn't know if YOU have the K (if I did have the K, I would happily check to give him a card to try and catch up).

[GotaFancy?]

As Fonzie says, the tournament/payout situation is of significance in making the decision - however assuming a pretty standard MTT structure (i.e. top heavy to the winner)

Your M is down to about 5.5 - your options by this stage pre flop are limited to shove or fold, even more so with a mid pocket pair, which plays poorly on the flop. There wont be many flops that you will like with your 77, so you just have tough decisions post flop.

So I think you made an error pre flop with your 3xBB raise

Given that you are where you are, there is a pretty big pot, and the board has paired, I think it's tough to get away from your 77 and you have to make the continuation - odds are he doesn't have a King or an overpair and you are still ahead.....you dont have chips to manoever, so it's all in for me.....

Originally Posted by dudeman99

*will post the rest of the hand after a couple of replies

What happened in this specific instance is of no relevence to the correct/best decision - my opinion of the biggest weakness of PL'rs (mass generalisation here) is that they are too results orientated ...... ignore/forget the specific result of this one hand - it's of no consequence....

My view is that you shouldn't post the result - all it can do is distract from the situation, and is of no significance to the strategy discussion.

[dudeman99]

Good advice fellas! There was a big difference between where I went out and the money for the top 2 places so I will play a bit less aggressive in the future. 77 is an above-average hand for short handed play so it was probably a bit too good to throw in this instance.

My thinking at the time was as there was KK on the board that there would be a very low chance of him having one in his hand. And even if he did, I had 2 outs to a boat.

As it turned out I pushed all in, he called, the river came A so I knew I was fecked, and at the end he turned over K-10.

Are there any tips for playing these kinds of hands apart from push or fold? Or with something that plays very poorly such as this these are my only 2 choices?

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by dudeman99

As it turned out I pushed all in, he called, the river came A so I knew I was fecked, and at the end he turned over K-10.

He would have probably folded to a pre flop shove. If he hadn't then you were slightly ahead in a flip to become the chip leader - not a bad situation! If you knew he had KT, then it becomes an easy shove!

Originally Posted by dudeman99

Are there any tips for playing these kinds of hands apart from push or fold? Or with something that plays very poorly such as this these are my only 2 choices?

Your M is down to under 6 - you have lost all space to manoever IMO. I feel anything other than a shove/fold at this stage is a mistake. THis is even more true with a difficult post flop hand like 77.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Your M is down to under 6 - you have lost all space to manoever IMO. I feel anything other than a shove/fold at this stage is a mistake. THis is even more true with a difficult post flop hand like 77.

Having said that, that's just the way I play - others here may offer alternatives - am thinking specifically of Valiant23 and Heniek who seem to do very well with far more passive games at this stage.

[Fonzie14(BPP)]

I think it depends on whether you are trying to "ladder" up a place or two, or are going for the win. As has been said, these tourneys tend to be very biased towards the top couple of places, so I guess it depends on your own financial situation wrt those extra couple of $$$,

[AJ]

Agreed, 77 doesn't play well post flop.

Like you I tend to overplay pocket pairs late. I'd be more likely to push preflop with my 7s than get stuck into a hand where you have to fold.

On that flop I'd lay them down

[dudeman99]

Yep, I realise now that I should have pushed. It probably would have made the villain throw his K-10 as my read was he was solid and not actively looking to eliminate players.

Of course, last time I pushed I ran into AA! It is still the correct play but as you say, dont focus on the individual results.

[Valiant23]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Having said that, that's just the way I play - others here may offer alternatives - am thinking specifically of Valiant23 and Heniek who seem to do very well with far more passive games at this stage.

I was actually thinking that a pre flop shove with 77 is a great spot for adding 20% to your stack.

Any other tips?

Lots of tips but they are all scenario and read dependent.

If there are any loose players left who are still playing a lot of flops then I'd probably bin em.

If the player who acted is likely to fold to a shove then that makes a decision easier.

Also, if the players like to limp pre flop and play aggressive post flop, then with a hand like that you want to take that away from them.

If you do shove and get called, I've found it profitable to replicate the action with a monster, because I have seen players raise 3xBB with AA because they want to build a pot, then seen them play 88/AK with an allin pre flop...then later they've raised 3xBB with a hand like QQ.

If you get seen shoving with 77, what is someone with AK going to think if you shove again with AA/KK?

[Hodgey]

I struggle with mid pairs on the final table too. The way I see it there are 2 ways to play it:

a) you shove or
b) you raise 4BB get a caller and then shove on the flop

the advantage of (b) is that if the caller misses the flop then they fold to the shove and you pick up a nice pot (nicer than just the blinds)

the disadvantage of (a) is that the caller misses the flop but then connects on the turn or river which wouldn't have happened with option (b)

Everytime I seem to pick the wrong option!

[Blatch]

I think you should be shoving here really. 20% of stack out there althought saying that the flop is good for you.

Its a $3 tourney so the standard of player your up against probably isnt going to be great. The guy could flat call you here with any two pics and any pair. Once the flat call comes I would shove and expect to be ahead really.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by Hodgey

I struggle with mid pairs on the final table too. The way I see it there are 2 ways to play it:

a) you shove or
b) you raise 4BB get a caller and then shove on the flop

the advantage of (b) is that if the caller misses the flop then they fold to the shove and you pick up a nice pot (nicer than just the blinds)

the disadvantage of (a) is that the caller misses the flop but then connects on the turn or river which wouldn't have happened with option (b)

Everytime I seem to pick the wrong option!

To consider option b, I think you must be first to act after the flop - in this case you are not, so I wouldn't really consider it too seriously on this occasion.

[Hodgey]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

To consider option b, I think you must be first to act after the flop - in this case you are not, so I wouldn't really consider it too seriously on this occasion.

I was talking more from a general point of view than this specific situation. But fairpoint and yes I agree that to shove post flop you need to act first. I think if we're acting second and shove then we either take it down uncontested cos the first player has nowt hence the check or we walk into a monster cos the first player has slow played. Shoving first to act at least gives us fold equity.

[Blatch]

How come no one has mentioned making the hero call lol

The flat caller could easily hold, 33, 44,55,66 putting us on an ace.

[heniek31]

Its either shove all fold for me in this situation.
Theres a call before me, so makes it easier for me to fold here.
I just don't want to have a headache after some one calls my raise and I don't hit or even pushes.
But thats my passive play in this hand.