Omaha Draws

[GotaFancy?]

Something I keep coming up against in Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo are situations where I have the nut high, with cards to come, but up against draws who are so strong that they are favourite against me..... what's the theoretically correct way of playing this?

Do you bet as big as you can to make your opponent pay for his draw (he has the odds and must call) or do you peel off another card and see if you still have the nuts? My Holdem instinct is that if someone is drawing against you, then you make them pay for their card - if they miss they wont pay you off afterwards...... however I'm starting to wonder if this is just getting me into trouble in Omaha.....lets try to manufacture an example.....

I have

The flop comes

Turn comes

The pot is $5000, I am first to act and there are 5 people in the pot. Everyone is deep stacked.

I have the nuts, but there are higher straight draws out there and heart and spade flush draws. I'm an underdog to win the hand against so many opponents ..... do I look to reduce the number of opponents, or do I look to minimise the pot size and see the river card?

[staffy]

Dnt really play Omaha but I would say it is difficult to get rid of the players who have the flush and Straight draws so I would say Minimum as possible.

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Something I keep coming up against in Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo are situations where I have the nut high, with cards to come, but up against draws who are so strong that they are favourite against me..... what's the theoretically correct way of playing this?

Do you bet as big as you can to make your opponent pay for his draw (he has the odds and must call)

No. He's favourite. All that matters is that he's more likely to win if you see
the river. It makes no difference whether he's favourite because he has the
best hand on the turn or because he has a huge chance of improving on the
river. Any bet you make on the turn is a bet that you'll be ahead after the
river, not a bet that you're ahead now.

You shouldn't be making him pay to see if he can overtake you ... he should
be making you pay to see if you can stay ahead.

As you say, if you bet, then he has the odds to call, however much you bet.
So if he calls, then by betting you are making an even money bet where
you're an underdog. If he raises, you're even worse off.

[GotaFancy?]

Cheers Guys - makes sense really Is tough not to think you're ahead when you have the nuts

Ok - lets change the situation slightly (or maybe not changing it so much as "redirecting" it). I don't know the exact odds for the example I concocted - but suspect that against any individual opponent, you are favourite But collectively they are beating you ..... Would you raise big then to try and reduce the field? Given you are out of position and the likelyhood is that a scare card will come down anyway,it's probably still worth keeping the pot small?

[Jaded]

Totally agree with slapdash - as you pointed out yourself, he has the odds to call so you can't force him into making a mistake by calling! You can force him into making a mistake by folding, but only if he REALLY sucks. In this situation, I'd limp in as cheaply as possible and if a decent sized raise came in, I'd be seriously thinking of getting out. (And I barely EVER think of getting out!!)

If you do play it, what card do you want on the river? I make it at least half the cards left that will fill in a draw for someone!

Also, JJT8o is a HORRENDOUS hand to be playing, IMO.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by Jaded

Also, JJT8o is a HORRENDOUS hand to be playing, IMO.

Cheers mate - just to stress - not a hand I actually played - a completely contrived situation

[Jaded]

Heh, didn't notice that bit!

[Paulie_D]

I keep seeing references to the others "'having the odds to call"

I don't see this. The current pot is $5K and you are first to act. You have the current nut hand but there are draws out there.

You MUST not give anyone odds to call (or rather, if they do call, they do it against the odds).

You are worried about flushes. The odds of them hitting are around 5:1 so, you MUST bet the size of the pot and if they are call, they are making a 5:1 bet to claim a 3:1 pot. As such they are calling against the odds.

Secondly, you are making a statement, "I have a great hand", they have to be thinking not only about the current pot bet but the NEXT one too if their card doesn't come. If they don't hit, you have to pot it AGAIN.

The odds for the straight draws are even worse.

[glceud]

Sorry to reopen this but I've decided to leave the cash holdem tables alone for a bit and play some Omaha.
Surely you have to bet the pot as 5 players with 20 cards might be fav to beat you but it is extremely unlikely that any one player is holding four cards that would give them the correct odds to make the call.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by glceud

Surely you have to bet the pot as 5 players with 20 cards might be fav to beat you but it is extremely unlikely that any one player is holding four cards that would give them the correct odds to make the call.

I think that's the whole point - you can hold the nuts, but are frequently a dog against one other player - draws in Omaha can be very strong....

Each player has 4 cards from which to make 2 card combinations - that's 6 x 2 cards all together - so each player has virtually the full strength of a complete 6 seat holdem table!! If you are up against 5 players, that's like being up against 30 Holdem hands!!!!!!

I'm looking forward to Omaha on Poker Night Live (due soon I think) - am hoping that will help me improve my game....

[glceud]

ok put the boot on the other shoe which four cards would you call a pot sized bet to. As Js qd kd perhaps gives you 18 outs with 45 cards to come but as far as I can see that is the best odds to draw to and I cant see you getting called by any one holding 2 pair to a fh draw or a small flush draw or a gut shot straight or an open ended straight. and you are also holding a number of anyones percieved outs

[ubermonkey1]

i think i would prefer as ah 10h js ,in fact i would be raiseing as much as i think they would call .
the nuts on the turn, plus double nut flush draw and nut straight draw .
with this hand only a paired board can beat you ,so only 10 possible cards to worry about on the river.

this hand also has the added bonus with 2 nut flush's possible, whichever hits you could get some action on the river makeing it a monster pot

[glceud]

Ok, if you bring another player into the hand holding the nuts as well with cards to improve you dont really have the nuts.
But if you check it round you wont know were you are and you are allowing every one without the odds to call to get a free card and beat you on the river.
If you bet the flop and everyone called, perfect as they must all have outs and therefore be holding each others cards.
I am sure that if you fed this problem into some super random cards measurement computer you would win more by betting the turn than you would lose overall.