How do good players play this ??

[voiceofjoe]

Hand from a Tourney tonight - I'm currently lying around 6th of 70.

Top 27 paid.

No overly aggressive or tight players noticable on table.

Fold, Call or Raise

Full Tilt Poker Game #7332328572: $2 + $0.25 Tournament (55635466), Table 20 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:20:27 ET - 2008/07/22
Seat 1: Kippiknaus76 (11,194)
Seat 2: Reech (4,225)
Seat 3: AngusRut (26,047)
Seat 4: 2PAIRBEAR (12,035), is sitting out
Seat 6: howdthatfeel (6,970)
Seat 7: Razorback100 (3,480)
Seat 8: Dro222 (29,514)
Seat 9: goloversic7 (22,193)
Kippiknaus76 antes 50
Reech antes 50
AngusRut antes 50
2PAIRBEAR antes 50
howdthatfeel antes 50
Razorback100 antes 50
Dro222 antes 50
goloversic7 antes 50
Reech posts the small blind of 200
AngusRut posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AngusRut [6d 3d]
2PAIRBEAR folds
howdthatfeel folds
Razorback100 has 15 seconds left to act
Razorback100 folds
Eurosausage sits down
Eurosausage adds 14,145
Dro222 raises to 800
goloversic7 calls 800
Kippiknaus76 folds
Reech folds
AngusRut calls 400
*** FLOP *** [Ac 4d 2d]
AngusRut checks
Dro222 bets 3,000
goloversic7 raises to 6,000
AngusRut has 15 seconds left to act ..............

[RowRow87]

dont think i could call mate, especially with Dro222 still to act.
would be great to see another card but i would fold

[billy the punter]

Call is out of the question. 6k shaves too much off for you to not be committed thereafter.

It really does depend on your situation. If you're playing 4 mtts at a time and 20 a day or somethin then an all-in is a definite option.

If the tournament is more important to you then it's a fold. I'd fold most of the time here.

[SteveO]

Easy fold. If you were heads up against the original raiser I would jam the flop as you have to assume you have 12 outs (9 diamonds and 3 5's).

[AJ]

Originally Posted by SteveO

Easy fold. If you were heads up against the original raiser I would jam the flop as you have to assume you have 12 outs (9 diamonds and 3 5's).

isn't it 11 outs, are you double counting the 5 of diamonds ?

I'd fold this preflop so as not to be in the siuation, I'd also fold it here

[voiceofjoe]

Originally Posted by AJ

isn't it 11 outs, are you double counting the 5 of diamonds ?

I'd fold this preflop so as not to be in the siuation, I'd also fold it here

I'm amazed anyone can fold that preflop with the odds being offered 2600/400
(BTW I think the outs is correct 9 plus 3 fives)

[billy the punter]

I have to agree it's an automatic call pre-flop.

There aren't many hands I would fold preflop to be honest.

[billy the punter]

Originally Posted by SteveO

Easy fold. If you were heads up against the original raiser I would jam the flop as you have to assume you have 12 outs (9 diamonds and 3 5's).

Also if the stacks of your opponents were 10k or less say - then it may be a shove for me.

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by AJ

isn't it 11 outs, are you double counting the 5 of diamonds ?

I'd fold this preflop so as not to be in the siuation, I'd also fold it here

I made it 9 remaining diamonds AJ and 3 5's not the 5 of diamonds.

[WASP]

All in

[AJ]

Originally Posted by WASP

All in

Not sure I agree with you, but it's certainly better than call.

It's push or fold time

[WASP]

Originally Posted by AJ

Not sure I agree with you, but it's certainly better than call.

It's push or fold time

Yep its not a fold for me and calling gets you nothing, big stacks don't like other agressive big stacks and with AK AQ they are going to fold if they call happy days you have 52 outs

[billy the punter]

Originally Posted by WASP

Yep its not a fold for me and calling gets you nothing, big stacks don't like other agressive big stacks and with AK AQ they are going to fold if they call happy days you have 52 outs

No one at this level is folding AK here.

[WASP]

Originally Posted by billy the punter

No one at this level is folding AK here.

Yep just noticed the levels.........

but back to the original question - how do good players play this ?




All in

[billy the punter]

Like I say it depends on the individual.

The best way I can answer is - what would I do if it happend in a tourn I usually play.

I would definitely fold.

Why on earth would I take a chance with a flip when I'm in a good position in the tourn. I'd try and let poker win my the tourn from that stage.

If I'm short stacked it plays itself obviously. There are many different ways to play a hand and it ALWAYS depends on the current state of the tournament and your position in it.

[Jaded]

I shove.

Let's face it, NO ONE is surprised by that.

[Valiant23]

I'm not folding pre flop either.

Originally Posted by Jaded

I shove.

Let's face it, NO ONE is surprised by that.

True, but I'm surprised you didn't advocate re-raising pre-flop.

Seat 8: Dro222 (29,514)
Seat 9: goloversic7 (22,193)

That to me says fold. If I had them covered with a stack to spare I'd be prepared to gamble, but I can't play on from here.

[voiceofjoe]

I took quite a while considering the push - but chickened out and folded.

I knew(felt?) that they where both playing aces, and that I would have 12 definite outs. They eventually ended up both allin before the turn - the initial rasier showed A4 for 2 pair and the other guy showed AQ the turn was a blank and the river was Q of Diamonds - giving the other guy a bigger 2 pair and would have filled my flush draw

I think if it had been nearer the bubble I would have called - I don't know if thats logical

But after looking at my percentages afterwards, bearing in mind the players had (roughly) what I thought they had,plus the fact that I couldn't really have asked for a much better flop I should have called then.
(I was a 6/4 shot after the flop)

Ah well next time ........

[SteveO]

Originally Posted by voiceofjoe

I took quite a while considering the push - but chickened out and folded.

I knew(felt?) that they where both playing aces, and that I would have 12 definite outs. They eventually ended up both allin before the turn - the initial rasier showed A4 for 2 pair and the other guy showed AQ the turn was a blank and the river was Q of Diamonds - giving the other guy a bigger 2 pair and would have filled my flush draw

I think if it had been nearer the bubble I would have called - I don't know if thats logical

But after looking at my percentages afterwards, bearing in mind the players had (roughly) what I thought they had,plus the fact that I couldn't really have asked for a much better flop I should have called then.
(I was a 6/4 shot after the flop)

Ah well next time ........

Obviously Joe if you knew what cards they held face up it's a call 100% of the time. The biggest factor for me would have been is my flush draw live and obviously if it isn't you're way behind.

[guesswest]

Haven't posted on here in ages but ran into this thread randomly googling something else so I'll throw my two cents in. I'd always push here. You can reasonably assume 12 outs. If someone has a better flush draw then they have it, but that's probabilistically unlikely enough I wouldn't give it much consideration with that much play in my stack. Your 12 outs over 2 cards gives you a 50% shot at taking this pot down, so I'd be shoving this even heads up as the pot as it stands makes that a lot of +EV. And you do have some amount of fold equity here, certainly over both opponents, but even both giving you this pot is not impossible - something like the 3k being a steal/cbet and the reraise a weak ace finding out where it is is.

There's value pushing this even heads up, but since you're against two opponents it's a better situation still, and with the money in the pot already you're getting a great price. You're probably going to have to pick up pots as a dog or without getting the right price at some point to win a tournament, so I'd never turn down value like this, especially as I assume taking this down would have made you chipleader with the bubble approaching, and put you in an excellent position to grind down shortstacks.