Harrington on Cash

[GotaFancy?]

My fear here is getting committed. I want to bet the flop. I want to ask questions. I dont want to get to the situation where I'm committed.

By checking the flop I'm looking to get to a showdown if I can without putting all my chips in. If the Ace doesn't come down on the river I probably pay with my stack for a showdown

Given that I'm probably prepared to pay with my stack on that flop to get to a showdown, I think I was wrong to be passive/try to keep the pot small on the flop. With hindsight I think I needed to bet - probably about $450 (2/3 of the pot).

That leaves me with 1000 chips in my stack and dangerously close to being pot committed. Overall I think it's a horrid situation and a horrid hand.

AA Hall did say he had a Full House afterwards, though he didn't say what cards - however the specific cards he had in this specific situation dont matter to me - it's a question of how it should be played against the range of cards he could have....

[Nade]

It is a total nightmare situation due to the blinds.

If we start from the top the range i'd put him on is any pocket pair and QJ+.

So the flop then comes 6,6,T. There's not many hands that you're behind to here - KT, AT, A6, TT, 66, 99.
Tempted to exclude TT as a lot of people will re-raise with it, but i don't know how Hall plays so possible called with it. 66 is very unlikely for obv reasons. So that leaves 4 hands really you're behind to. (Unless he had a similar read as me when i decided to trap you with jacks the other day but generally can discount jacks here as well)

So really you have to bet i think against that range, about 450 ish as you get a good idea of where you are but still have 1k if it goes pear-shaped as you say.

The turn - killer. If he was to call the flop then i'd probably put him on AT. But the thing is you're only really behind to a T and it's possible he was calling with 2 high cards like AQ hoping to take it away or spike on the turn.
I think by betting the flop you're now put into a situation where you have to commit your tournament to find out where you are as it's extremely likely you'll be faced with a big card coming and/or face a big bet committing you. or you just total give up on it.

So this hand is just bizarrely hard to figure out a 'correct' way to play it.

I think a bet out on flop ~450, if called check/fold to river would have been the best way in the end to try and win the hand but lose the minimum.

He must have hit the A so ... unless he had A10 then you were ahead until the river which means the best play is to bet out the flop to which i reckon he folds, but as you check he sees a good opp. as big stack to take it away on turn, probably confused by your call, happy to see A on river with AJ ...


Whether those ramblings have solved anything i don't know ...

Edit: forgot to mention got my harrington books this morning , look forward to reading them

[slapdash]

How about making a slightly smaller bet preflop? That allows you a bit more room to
make a bet postflop without necessarily committing yourself.

[GotaFancy?]

Yes - quite possibly

Because stacks are small, implied odds are low and it should take a smaller bet to get a fold

However, on the flip side, 88 is a pretty nasty hand to play post flop - there will almost certainly be overcards, and my 88 will probably not have improved - a smaller bet reduces fold equity.....

Which gets me thinking - what's my real objective with the bet? Am I looking for the blinds to fold, or am I looking for action (88 is currently probably the best hand, but is unlikely to improve on the flop)? If everyone folds, 150 increase to my stack isn't especially significant. If I get a caller I'm probably pretty uncomfortable post flop....

If I'm happy to take down the blinds - how about just shoving as an alternative? I know that this is positive ev (positive, not maximum) in tournament chips because the Sklansky Chubukov number is 159 - from the button, even if my cards are exposed, I can shove without negative ev with stack sizes up to about 40x BB. SO I know I have positive ev and I know I have no difficult decisions to follow (should I be scared of difficult decisions when I have position?)

[Fonzie14]

Looking at it again, with an M of 12, I don't think pushing is a bad move.

Obviously, it would depend on the tourney situation - how close to bubble, how long until next level (and halving your M) etc.

The other option I supose, is to limp with your pkt 8s, hope to hit, but if you don't just muck them, leaving you with a large enough stack to carry on with no major dramas.

[Nade]

What's your objective? Only you can answer that. If you're confident with your post flop play then you'll welcome the action but if you're not confident playing 88 post flop then you may as well shove or limp hoping to hit a set.

But, Having narrowed down Hall's range with hindsight i think he would have called an all in pre flop and you'd have lost anyway.

FWIW if i saw a little tiddler of a bet in front of me pre flop then they shut down post flop it'd be the easiest thing in the world to take it down no matter what the flop came.

I think the objective is to not be scared when raising, don't act as if you have a mid pair and are frightened. I'd be happier to limp pre flop rather than a scared looking smaller bet.

[AA_Hall]

Hi guys just been reading this very interesting dont want to give away to many clues as to how i play but i had A something full housed it on the river was behind until the river ?????

Not quite sure bout it as its been a while and been playing loads of hands recently but dont think i played it wrong


OR DID I !!!!!

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by Nade

FWIW if i saw a little tiddler of a bet in front of me pre flop then they shut down post flop it'd be the easiest thing in the world to take it down no matter what the flop came.

I think the objective is to not be scared when raising, don't act as if you have a mid pair and are frightened. I'd be happier to limp pre flop rather than a scared looking smaller bet.

When I suggested a smaller bet preflop, I just meant something like 3 BB rather than 3.5 BB, not a "tiddler". While it doesn't seem much difference, it means that a two-thirds-pot bet postflop is only about 28% of your remaining chips rather than 33% (assuming the BB calls), so might just make the difference between getting pot-committed and not.

By the way, I think that on the flop that came, a bet of 2/3 the pot is larger than necessary. Unless he's already ahead, he probably only has 6 outs. I wouldn't bet much more than half the pot. This also makes it easier to bet without committing yourself.

[GotaFancy?]

Have posted this hand on 2+2 to see what they come back with.....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=210527

[Nade]

Lots of interesting points in vol.1 and bits of vol.2 i've read also very good.

His theory on how to play monsters with deep stacks surprised me tbh. I've always played them aggressively but make sure i get value on every street so at least 1/3 pot bet on every street to guarantee getting a decent pay off. But he advocates pot bets on every street as the expectation is it makes 20 big blinds with 100BB deep stacks. He says the times people fold on flop/turn/river will be out-weighed by the times people call you down the whole way and you take their stack or double through. I'll take his word for that.

Still will be very hard in the heat of battle to avoid putting in value bets the whole way to not scare away your customer but i'm going to try pot bets and see what happens.

A different idea i'm struggling on is keeping pots small when i'm not sure of being favourite to win. i.e. if i have top top and there's flush draws or boards a bit dodgy i always want to bet big on the flop to find out where i am. He seems to advocate checking the turn mostly and calling a small river bet or put out a block bet to keep the pots small with 1 big pair. I do the river part but not the turn part, i hate checking the turn but watching pros and reading the books it seems the standard thing they do.

[GotaFancy?]

Wow you've gone through it fast - I'm still on part 2!!!

[Nade]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Wow you've gone through it fast - I'm still on part 2!!!

I'm off Uni now so have all day every day to do whatever i like, and a large part has been reading the books! (Over and over again as it's hard to take in all his complex theory )

[Nade]

This sums up his theory on how to play monsters:

"Although the smaller betting strategies tend to keep the opponent in the hand a little more often, and as a result do a little better collecting an extra bet or winning a medium sized pot, the big betting strategy more than compensates by collecting the whole pot at the end.

Given our assumption that result (winning the opponent's whole stack) occurs less than 5 percent of the time with the big bet strategy, but that's still enough to make it a dominating strategy.

This result, however, confirms one of the basic tenents of deep stack poker. When you have a hand so strong that your opponents entire stack is at risk if he chooses to play the hand, you need to play the hand in such a way that you can put him all in on the river without needing to make a bet so large that it's out of line with the action that has occurred so far." Vol.1 Pg245

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Have posted this hand on 2+2 to see what they come back with.....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=210527

Looks as though you've got them stumped!

[GotaFancy?]

lol - I think I maybe didn't follow the right posting conventions However the link to the hand convertor wasnt working at the time and I took the view that it probably didn't support boss anyway......

[Nade]

Another advantage i've found of betting the pot with a big hand is people can interpret it as a bluff!

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($96)
CO ($204.75)
Button ($110.65)
SB ($98)
Hero ($249.80)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
3 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $12, Button calls $8.

Flop: ($23.50) 2, 3, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $22.5, Button raises to $99.65 (All-In), Hero calls $77.15.

Turn: ($0) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($0) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $222.80

Results in white below:
Hero has As Ad (two pair, aces and twos).
Button has Ts Ac (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins $222.80.

Of course fact i'm reraising the button could look like a bluff anyway but the big pot bet does look suspect in a lot of scenarios.

I like it

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by Nade

Another advantage i've found of betting the pot with a big hand is people can interpret it as a bluff!

Definitely - I will often call a large bet, where I would fold to a smaller "value" bet. I will often bluff with small bets and bet big with monsters.

The Mole says something similar here - The Mole - that he calls because the bet is too big and he has a tougher choice if his opponent bets less.

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Definitely - I will often call a large bet, where I would fold to a smaller "value" bet. I will often bluff with small bets and bet big with monsters.

The Mole says something similar here - The Mole - that he calls because the bet is too big and he has a tougher choice if his opponent bets less.

Yeah, I was a bit surprised that applied at the level the mole plays at. You'd thing that if you tend to call big bets and fold to smaller bets it would be easy to exploit, so you wouldn't generally do it.

[slapdash]

Originally Posted by slapdash

I bought these today, but haven't really started reading them yet.

Quote:




I don't think that doing different things with the same cards and doing the
same thing with different cards are necessarily contradictory. I have a half
formed kind of idea that in a deep stacked game it might be more important
to vary your play: I'll think about it and see if I can articulate it.

Rather belatedly :

In the Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide, in the chapter on "post-flop play" by Chris Ferguson, he gives lots of examples where he recommends playing aggressively on the flop and slowing down on the turn. But then he says that you don't want your opponents to know that when you slow down on the turn you have a marginal hand, so he recommends slowing down some of the time with big hands. So he certainly doesn't seem to think that your "deception" should always be gained by "doing the same thing with different hands" rather than "doing different things with the same hand". I guess the point is that preflop there are a limited number of things you can do, so it's easier to "mix it up" by doing the same thing with different hands, but on later streets there are a lot more possible courses of action you could have taken, so it's easier to mix it up by doing different things with the same hand?

By the way, I was interested to read there that he says that when he won the WSOP ME in 2000 (?), he never called preflop (always folded or raised) unless he was in the blinds. That's not just "never when he was first into the pot": really never! Though he says that he's moderated this strategy since.

Brian the Wasp has mentioned this book before. A book called "[Poker Site] Strategy Guide" doesn't sound too promising, but I agree with him, it's an excellent book with lots in it to think about. Highly recommended.