Harrington on Cash

[GotaFancy?]

Started reading this at the weekend - am going to try really studying it this time, rather than just reading it - so will put some bullet points up here on the main topics, and what I take to be the "key ideas" - with a bit of luck we may even get some discussion going I've finished Part I - there are 12 sections overall spanning both volumes.

Introduction

NO LIMIT CASH v NO LIMIT TOURNAMENTS

Cash is typically deeper stacked. This allows a wider range of starting hands to be played. It also means stronger hands are required to get to a showdown.
Top Pair Top Kicker is a strong hand in most Tournament situations, but a weak hand in Cash games
A SAMPLE HAND
What are the players thinking in High Stakes Poker, Series 3, Episode 10 when the flop comes A99 with hole cards of AK, Q9, A3 and 97
Being deep stacked, cash play allows for a wider range of starting hands but needs to showdown a stronger hand

Part 1 - Basic Ideas of NL Play

THE FOUR PRINCIPLES OF POKER
- In General you want to bet your strong hands, check your middling hands, and fold or bluff your weakest hands
- In General, aggression (betting and raising) is better than passivity (checking and calling)
- In General, a successful bet must be able to do one of three things: force a better hand to fold, force a weaker hand to call, or cause a drawing hand to draw at unfavourable odds
- Never do anything all of the time
EXPECTATION AND EXPECTED VALUE
POT ODDS
EXPRESS ODDS & IMPLIED ODDS
- In all close decisions you should try to make the play that creates the appearance of giving action. A table image of an action player ... is more profitable than the table image of a rock.
CALCULATING OUTS
The rule of Four: If two cards are still to come and you will be able to see both cards, multiply your number of outs by four to get your winning chances in the hand
The Rule of Two: If only one card is still to come, multiply your outs by two to get your winning chances
BET TYPES
-The Value Bet
-The Probe Bet
-The Bluff
-The Semi Bluff
THE CHECK
CONTROLLING POT ODDS


Part 2 - Key Elements of Deep Stack Cash Play

Part 3 - Difference between Tight Aggressive and Loose Aggressive. How to play TAG preflop

Part 4 - Flop Play Heads Up

Part 5 - How to handle multi way flops. Introduction to "Harringtons Law"

Part 6 - How to play the turn

Part 7 - Intricacies of river play

Part 8 - Tells and Observation

Part 9 - Intoductions to basics of LAG play

Part 10 - What are weak games and how do you beat them?

Part 11 - Managing Bankroll

Part 12 - Conversation with Bobby Hoff

[GotaFancy?]

- Never do anything all of the time

Not sure I necessarily agree with this - and it's the Chris Fergusson comment I tend to go with - something along the lines of "It's not necessary to do something different with the same cards if you do the same thing with different cards" - either way you have your deception factor....

[Tom Hedonist]

Unfortunately Gaf, I'm not sure there is much to discuss here at the moment. I haven't bought the books as yet, although I certainly do intend to... I wish they'd have come out a couple of months ago, as I'd have got them whilst I was in New York. But at the moment, my Poker Library is probably worth as much as my bankroll

I play far more cash games than I do tournaments, however I'm a bit dubious that Harrington may be jumping on his own bandwagon, as he seems better known for his tournament success than for playing cash games.

Regarding playing the same cards differently or different cards the same. I guess it doesn't matter a whole bunch because, as you say "Either way you have your deception factor."

That said, I prefer the Ferguson approach... as a tight player, if you've shown down a couple of big hands which you raised pre flop, bet/reraised on the flop, etc, etc, it does mean that (with position) you can make some great steals with suited connectors, pocket pairs or occassionally just with air. There was great play made by Paul Wasicka on HSP. Where he established a very tight image in the first couple of hours, which later enabled him to steal a large pot by representing a huge hand

[Marlin]

Sorry if this may seem a stupid question, because I have only read Vol1 of the no limit Harrington books and I am a novice, but I don’t remember reading the rule of four or two.

If I have 9 outs with the turn and the river to come, so I multiply it by four to get 36, but then what do I do with that figure? Does it relate to pot size and size of bet I can afford to make/ call or whether I should continue playing my hand at all, because I have or don’t have enough chances of winning, or have I missed the point completely?

[Samba_SamPa]

Hi Marlin, it means you have approximately a 36% chance of hitting an 'out'

Expanding on this, you are then able to calculate whether you have the right odds with which to make your play.

Eg. There's $25 in the pot, and it will cost you $5 to call - you are getting odds of 5/1 about your call when you are approx 7/4 to hit an out

Or there could be $40 in the pot, but it will cost you $25 to call - you are only getting odds of 8/5 about your call, but you're longer odds to hit an out.

[GotaFancy?]

Marlin - dont confuse Harrington on Cash Vol I and Harrington on Holdem Vol I

[Marlin]

Thanks for the replies. I didn’t realise it was an approximate percentage of hitting an out. Now it makes sense.

[slapdash]

I bought these today, but haven't really started reading them yet.

Quote:

- Never do anything all of the time

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Not sure I necessarily agree with this - and it's the Chris Fergusson comment I tend to go with - something along the lines of "It's not necessary to do something different with the same cards if you do the same thing with different cards" - either way you have your deception factor....

I don't think that doing different things with the same cards and doing the
same thing with different cards are necessarily contradictory. I have a half
formed kind of idea that in a deep stacked game it might be more important
to vary your play: I'll think about it and see if I can articulate it.

[slick mick]

Now available on amazon for under £12 each, ordered mine today.

[GotaFancy?]

Looking forward to your comments Mick - hopefully we can get some discussion going on the key concepts

One thing I've always struggled with:

Originally Posted by Page68

If you have a pair of tens against two opponents with some action before the flop, and the flop comes Queen, Jack, Ten, all one suit, you have a set, but you dont want to play a big pot with this hand. You've got a small hand for the situation and you'd be happy to end the hand right there.

You have two contradictory goals. Firstly, you want to control the size of the pot (implying check-call or small bets). Secondly though you want to end the hand right there (implying a big bet). So what's your action here? (talking very generally - I know there are no stack sizes, details on the players etc)

[slick mick]

That's certainly a tricky situation, so many possible hands that could be beating you or could be drawing to a hand that beats you. There are so many unknowns it's impossible to give a clear, concise answer apart from - it depends

[slapdash]

If you have a pair of tens against two opponents with some action before the flop, and the flop comes Queen, Jack, Ten, all one suit, you have a set, but you dont want to play a big pot with this hand. You've got a small hand for the situation and you'd be happy to end the hand right there.

I didn't interpret that to mean "you should try to end the hand right there".
Just that you wouldn't be disappointed if you won a very small pot.

The general theme of the book, at least as far as I've read so far, seems to
be that in a deep-stacked cash game your strategy should be focussed on
the big pots: both on winning them and on trying to make the pots bigger
when you're fairly sure that you are going to win them.

So I'm pretty sure that Harrington's answer on this hand would be that you
keep the pot small, and don't worry too much about the fact that you
might be able to win a small pot right here if you made a big enough bet.
Small pots don't matter.

Actually, from what's before that paragraph, I think the only point he's
trying to make here is that although he's just advised trying to play big
pots with big hands, you should apply common sense about what
constitutes a "big hand": although trips after the flop is usually a big hand,
it's not really big when there's a good chance an opponent has a made
flush or straight or higher trips.

[GotaFancy?]

He goes on to talk briefly about dealing with conflicting goals.

Then there is a really interesting example with the KK v AQ and an Ace on the flop (and whether the KK should continuation bet)

[GotaFancy?]

I think my reading over the weekend has led to a bit of a "eureka" moment in my poker development (impacting the early stages of my tournament play as well).

To date I've been very "heavy handed" in my play - either bashing away with large raises street after street or check folding - but I finally seem to have "seen the light" when it comes to controlling pot sizes - I seem to have discovered the ability to check call with my "middling" hands

Whilst it sounds pretty simple, and I think I kind've knew I should be doing it, putting it into practice was something that always seemed to elude me - no more (I'm sure most who know my game would agree that my biggest weakness has always been overaggression)

[GotaFancy?]

Maybe not - I played this pretty poorly and let myself get outdrawn (I presume) - I suppose the main error here is that I'm not deep stacked, so the sledgehammer approach was probably more applicable


***** Hand 1087358101 *****
50.00/100.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 19 May 2008 20:32:41
PL Champs FR (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: GpdDelusio (1850.00)
Seat 2: pokaleg (3740.00)
Seat 3: uberpl1 (1700.00)
Seat 4: MissPene (4630.00)
Seat 5: pl---GaF (1830.00)
Seat 6: DRAGON57 (3035.00)
Seat 7: AAHall (2887.00)
Seat 8: Red_Fear1 (1870.00)
Seat 9: Sleeekshot (1778.00)
Seat 10: PLjolly67 (2305.00)
DRAGON57 post SB 50.00
AAHall post BB 100.00
** Deal **
GpdDelusio [N/A, N/A]
pokaleg [N/A, N/A]
uberpl1 [N/A, N/A]
MissPene [N/A, N/A]
pl---GaF [8h, 8c]
DRAGON57 [N/A, N/A]
AAHall [N/A, N/A]
Red_Fear1 [N/A, N/A]
Sleeekshot [N/A, N/A]
PLjolly67 [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
Red_Fear1 Fold
Sleeekshot Fold
PLjolly67 Fold
GpdDelusio Fold
pokaleg Fold
uberpl1 Fold
MissPene Fold
pl---GaF Raise to 350.00
DRAGON57 Fold
AAHall Call 350.00
*** Flop(Board): *** : [6h, 10c, 6s]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
AAHall Check
pl---GaF Check
*** Turn(Board): *** : [6h, 10c, 6s, 6d]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
AAHall Bet 562.00
pl---GaF Call 562.00
*** River(Board): *** : [6h, 10c, 6s, 6d, Ah]
*** Bet Round 4 ***
AAHall Bet 1874.00
pl---GaF Fold
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1874.00
GpdDelusio Fold Win: 0.00
pokaleg Fold Win: 0.00
uberpl1 Fold Win: 0.00
MissPene Fold Win: 0.00
pl---GaF Fold Win: 0.00
DRAGON57 Fold Win: 0.00
AAHall By default Win: 1874.00
Red_Fear1 Fold Win: 0.00
Sleeekshot Fold Win: 0.00
PLjolly67 Fold Win: 0.00

[Nade]

Have to say i can't think of any logical reason to check in that spot on the flop.

Pre flop- looks like you're stealing the blinds so could call with a slightly larger than normal range of hands. If you bet on flop most likely oppo. will fold and give you credit for a hand.

Just thinking through this hand some more realise i could write an essay on all my different thoughts and possibilities

The more i think, the more the answers come round to you playing the hand well as it only cost 900 whereas in many other scenarios you go bust or spend 1400+ finding out where you are and in many scenarios still go bust. It looks such a standard hand on the surface but scary how much depth i can now look into a single hand.
Edit: Think this is due to my own 'eureka' moment a couple of weeks ago where i can now pretty accurately predict what a player has and what they'd and in turn what i'll do to counter it in most situations. Have final tabled 2 PL tourns since and crushing HU matches so as long as i keep improving it it's onwards and upwards, will be playing cash again seriously from wednesday so look forward to it. Love those moments when things just click.

Will be interested to see yours and others thoughts but my thought at this time has gone from 'can't see a single thing right about this' to 'you might have played this as well as possible, losing the minimum'. Confused.

[Nade]

No one else interested?

[Fonzie14]

Personally, I don't like the check on the flop. I would rather put a bet out to try and establish where I am in the hand.

OK, so the BB could be calling with a wide range, thinking that you are on a steal. With a bet on the flop you can test for resistance, I would probably go with about half pot size. If BB has nothing he should fold and you take down the pot. If he calls/raises then I'm going to be very wary and probably throw my hand away to any further action , particularly with the 6 coming on the turn.

Would be interesting to know what hand Steve (AAHall) had.

[slick mick]

So I order them together from the same place and get volume 2 today...no sign of 1.

[Nade]

Lol @ 'Poker Strategy' section ...