Flush on the flop. What do you do? (New HH to discuss)

[Valiant23]

First of all I never ever thought that it was a bad beat. I absolutely got what I deserved.

the danger is that you get outdrawn by a single spade (e.g. K s)

That was my first thought and possibly the 2nd reason for my inaction (the first being inexperienced in the situation).

SO what do you think the right play is then?

I should have bet out, about a pot sized bet. That hopefully would have got rid of the fishers, although I'll be honest here and I'd pay to see the turn if I'm holding the highest non community suited card.

So, I bet out 100.

The chances are that Sammy May is holding the K and calls
TROGON with his set thinks he's got an A limper or someone drawing to a 4 card flush and flat calls (maybe even makes a pot building raise).

Turn gives no help to him and in all honesty I should have pushed. Sammy May would have folded and TROGON would put me on two pair A's and Q's. He'd consider the flush or a higher set for about a second, and then he'd shrug his shoulders and call my shove.

TROGON: bets 240

Being honest, I thought that the villain had trip A's

Valiant23: raises 260 to 500

and I suspect the villain that he was up against AQ (a bigger full house), which is why he only called my re-raise.


I know that I played it appallingly, but I have learned some things from it. I won't be anywhere near as passive when I have made my hand in the future (I made a flush tonight in the Titan tourney and showed the correct aggression), and I'll be less concerned with a 4 card flush.

I'd argue that although I lost the hand, I gained much more in experience of these situations. Much more interesting than shoving with AA and losing.

If I do the same again I deserve to be kept in an aquarium.


Night night.

[robilaruk]

sigh - I agree

I think he is turning into a magyar



I can't believe you found your manhood at this precise moment rather than BEFORE when YOU WERE AHEAD and they were DRAWING

(bit like me last night in the paradise premier league against Sharpy )

Giving free cards to 2 players is a crime - one, well maybe, just maybe its worth the risk, but 2?

Learn from my mistake - never ever ever do it - get our chips in when you can and hope they don't out draw you


Damo


[quote=GotaFancy?;650678]You RAISED him after your call???

[Valiant23]

Look Damo, don't beat about the bush mate.

Let me know what you really think!

[Lillacarin]

bet 1/3 of the pot to see reactions from other players.
make a decision from there.

it's not easy
hoping you have a big bankroll

[Valiant23]

Well, I have looked for an opportunity to try and put the advice given into practice.

The situation isn't an exact replica, but it's close enough.

PokerStars Game #7443359342: Tournament #38075922, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/12/14 - 18:52:00 (ET)
Table '38075922 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Rdallas0720 (2210 in chips)
Seat 3: montyh (1640 in chips)
Seat 5: UrbanGrowth (3270 in chips)
Seat 6: jbhustle (1035 in chips)
Seat 8: mikey1020 (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: jjdee (1385 in chips)
Seat 10: Valiant23 (3980 in chips)
jjdee: posts small blind 25
Valiant23: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Valiant23 [5s 9s]
Rdallas0720: raises 100 to 150
montyh: folds
UrbanGrowth: calls 150
jbhustle: calls 150
mikey1020: folds
jjdee: folds
Valiant23: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [4s Kd 3s]
Valiant23: bets 150
Rdallas0720: folds
UrbanGrowth: calls 150
jbhustle: folds
*** TURN *** [4s Kd 3s] [6s]
Valiant23: bets 150
UrbanGrowth: raises 250 to 400
Valiant23: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [4s Kd 3s 6s] [Qc]
Valiant23: bets 3280 and is all-in
UrbanGrowth: calls 2570 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Valiant23: shows [5s 9s] (a flush, Nine high)
UrbanGrowth: shows [Kc Qs] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Valiant23 collected 6865 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6865 | Rake 0
Board [4s Kd 3s 6s Qc]
Seat 1: Rdallas0720 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: montyh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: UrbanGrowth showed [Kc Qs] and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 6: jbhustle folded on the Flop
Seat 8: mikey1020 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: jjdee (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 10: Valiant23 (big blind) showed [5s 9s] and won (6865) with a flush, Nine high

Thoughts?

[GotaFancy?]

I hate your pre flop call!!! (Yes I know you're getting 5-1, but you'll end up in trouble with hands like that!!!) Having said that, I spose you have enough chips to take a punt!!!

Your flop bet is a bit small - not sure what you want to achieve.....as you see he called you with just 2 overcards (as he would)!!! I suppose it's building the pot if you hit your mid flush..... but I wouldn't be wanting to play a big pot with that draw - I could accept a bigger bet (semi bluff) with the hope of taking the pot down.....
Again on the turn - you've hit your flush and have a str8 flush draw - what are you hoping to achieve with a 150 bet? Way too small!!! You should be making him pay if he is drawing to a higher flush (as he is with Qs) - you are giving him the right odds to outdraw you!!!!! You need to be setting your opponent the wrong odds - so they make a mistake if they call.

Your river bet is way too big, but what a donk to call he was!!!!

I'm sorry I still dont like the way you played it - you're not controlling the odds you're setting for your opponent!!!!

[Valiant23]

Complaining about the pre-flop bet is slightly harsh, as I saw an opportunity to try and play the flush again and had the chips to call.

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by Valiant23

Complaining about the pre-flop bet is slightly harsh,

Probably

However I would never have called....

For calling:
Pot Odds
Illustrate something you've wanted to try
Have large stack

Against
Someone has shown strength
Poor cards
Out of position after the flop
Have time in tourney

[voiceofjoe]

I agree with GaF, about folding pre-flop.

But I understand you did it for this thread , so ....

Just a question, you bet the flop 3*BB - (I would have Checked here 1st in, so good on you)

.... But what would you have done to a ReRaise on the flop, he definitely had the hand to do it at that point, and you only have King High ??

[Valiant23]

Well to be honest although I didn't have a made hand I felt that being 4 to a flush with low cards as I had was almost the same as having a low flush and worrying about the 4 card flush losing to any higher spade.

I initiated the betting as I wanted another card, I dictated the price I was prepared to pay, and the other guy let me have it.

If I was to be playing his cards I would have re-raise to a pot sized bet to price the flush and str8 draws out of it, but still been wary of any who called.

If he had re-raise more than an extra 150 I think I would have folded.

[GotaFancy?]

So it was a small bet on the flop to try and get a cheap card? Hmmm.... interesting ..... and think that sounds ok (maybe)

But why the small bet post flop then after you had hit?

[Valiant23]

I gave him credit for the King of spades, and I feel I had the information for it to be a decent enough read (turns out he had the Q). I feel it's crucial playing lower flushes to be acutely aware of 4 card flushes (regardless of the statistical probability.

I also think he put me on a raggy king, so he may have put me on 2 pr (I think he did tbh). That said the last thing I wanted was to give any other information and if I raised my bet at this point then I think it would have scared him off.

So it was a small bet on the flop to try and get a cheap card?

One of the few nuggets in SSII imo, and one backed up by other articles.

[GotaFancy?]

You thought he had the King of Spades but no 2nd spade? That is every reason to make the bet BIGGER - make him overpay for his draw - not give him (effectively) a free card!!!!

If he misses, he'll lay it down (or at least he should have) and you wont get paid off.......

[robilaruk]

interesting - in this case I would probably checked the flop with 3 others to act behind you simply because you have a great draw, but can you afford to call a re-raise? (which villian should have made)

your bet does look like a blocking bet and to me does say I have a flush draw so please don't raise me as I want to see a cheap turn card

turn - excellent play after betting the flop, a similar small bet is really good at this point and doesn't mean much at all - it just entices them to call again

turn - assuming I had checked the flop I would over bet here and see what would happen - say 500 or so

so to his raise - I wouldn't fear the flush but maybe a high card flush draw - I would have reraised him here to about 1200 - enough that he is getting crap odds to call, but not enough that he would fold his hand (as if he calls and misses it still leaves him around 2K in chips, so he is probably inclined to call with an Ace or K flush draw)

river - I think you got very lucky - if he doesn't hit 2 pair I think he folds
I would have value bet here - say about 1100 into the 1400 pot - he has about 2.5K chips left, so the 1100 is just a little under half his stack, so you want a call with K10 etc - a shove and I think he may lay down k10

nice hand

Damo

Originally Posted by Valiant23

Well, I have looked for an opportunity to try and put the advice given into practice.

The situation isn't an exact replica, but it's close enough.

Thoughts?

[robilaruk]

from my perspective

your chips are worthless, you need to move your chips about, and getting 5:1 or more on your BB with cards like that is a very cheap way to hit a monster and make them worth something (i.e. more chips = a better chance of getting ITM)

you need to be calling every so often in these situations with the correct price to play - we actually haven't seen much - a 3XBB raise and a couple of callers - what does that say about the quailty of their hands? not much, just the usual 2 high cards, Ace rag and probably a small PP

I really really like the call - if you miss you can just throw your hand away for only 100 chips, but if you hit, you get a chance to add a substantial amount to your stack - Mr V has a decent amount of chips and can afford the 100 more it costs to call.

just my thoughts

Damo

[the mole]

Originally Posted by sensibleboy

I would check and hope to induce a bet from an opponent around the table. Providing this works, when it comes back round to you I would then raise pretty big.

yep my thoughts too.

We can all see the danger here but theres value in your position not to bet . someone most probably will then you go over the top and bet it big throughout.

[the mole]

oops just realized this is a big thread only read the first few