Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan?

[GotaFancy?]

Quite a nice flop for me - top pair with Queen kicker and a Queen high flush draw. I like these hands because you can bet them aggressively - your opponent may be on a draw or some other weak holding - I can bet it aggressively knowing that I can win the hand multiple ways (May already be ahead, may win if I hit my draw, may force my opponent to fold a better hand as I can be aggressive....

What should my "gameplan" be throughout the hand from here?


***** Hand 1092896962 *****
10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 23 May 2008 21:02:38
Poker League (Real /Tournament )
Seat 1: cossac (1500.00)
Seat 2: ncardeira+ (1490.00)
Seat 3: PLwarbirds (1460.00)
Seat 4: saja777 (1570.00)
Seat 5: BosanacBiH (1500.00)
Seat 6: Dedo68 (1500.00)
Seat 7: JMourinho1 (1500.00)
Seat 8: PLTelepee (1480.00)
Seat 9: PLdobbin (1500.00)
PLwarbirds post SB 10.00
saja777 post BB 20.00
** Deal **
cossac [N/A, N/A]
ncardeira+ [N/A, N/A]
PLwarbirds [N/A, N/A]
saja777 [N/A, N/A]
BosanacBiH [N/A, N/A]
Dedo68 [N/A, N/A]
JMourinho1 [N/A, N/A]
PLTelepee [Jd, Qs]
PLdobbin [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
BosanacBiH Call 20.00
Dedo68 Fold
JMourinho1 Fold
PLTelepee Call 20.00
PLdobbin Fold
cossac Call 20.00
ncardeira+ Fold
PLwarbirds Call 20.00
saja777 Check
*** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 8s, Js]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
PLwarbirds Check
saja777 Bet 100.00
BosanacBiH Fold

[SteveO]

You have to be very cautious in this hand as your flush could be drawing dead as it's likely that someone else has a Ks or As. You know how bad players are in this league so if you raise to define your hand you know someone could well call your bet with a lower flush draw or absoulute crap so I'd play it passively and just call and see how he acts on the turn.

You also have 2 players left to act behind so I'd definitely just flat call.

[AJ]

Nah, agression is called for, pot sized bet

[SteveO]

Not in the early stages when the blinds are low and all the mainiacs are still in.

[WASP]

I probably would have folded preflop mid position with a marginal hand, its not worth the hassle early on,

[SteveO]

I'd have folded preflop also cos it isn't sssssooooooooooooooootted.

[GotaFancy?]

Stacks are 75xBB - is it not worth a look for the implied odds?

[SteveO]

If the flop comes JJQ or QQJ you're laughing.

[WASP]

Originally Posted by GotaFancy?

Stacks are 75xBB - is it not worth a look for the implied odds?

Maybe each to their own but for me if you are routing out implied odds hands and bullet busters suited connectors and low drawing cards are best. QJo has so many ways of looking good on the flop and still losing you a packet.

[happyhornet]

It's a borderline call pre-flop for me, but once the flop hits, I'm with AJ, raise it up baby

[Mr Intensity]

Don't really see the point in calling pre flop - you've hit that flop pretty hard and still with 5 people in you can't be sure where you are at all. If you play it surely a nice little raise to 80 would get rid of a couple of them and make it easier to play on the flop. The only time having a lot of people in the flop is if you really hit it like QQ7 and can try to get someone to hit an A or something on the turn.

Anyway, on the flop with 5 people in. In this situation I'd probably call most of the time but sometimes raise to 300.

If I called then I'd put it down to a raise or hopefully see what the turn brings. I'd call another bet on the turn but hopefully get the chance to bet out and take it down. If the A or K of spades came I'd probably try to keep the pot smallish by check/calling. Similar if I hit a set or two pair, maybe bet out if I can incase anyone still had the A or K of spades.

If I raised then I'd put it down to a re-raise. I'd be worried if the raise got called, and probably he passive on the turn.


Overall it's a pretty tough situation, if you really go for it you could be drawing dead and go out on level 1. But it's not a bad hand, I'd be trying to keep it small and win a medium pot if I hit the best flush or the Q is good. Wouldn't go close to all in, unless the A or K of spades came (hopefully both).

[Nade]

Pre flop i'd prefer a couple more limpers and later position to limp but if you're confident in your post flop play then limping is ok imo.

Post flop i'm re-raising. Reason is i think the initial bettor has a J and doesn't want to see a spade come off so is betting to win the pot there, which i think is to your advantage as you can build the pot, confident of winning it on any street, and if they call it disguises your spade a little more. I think the value play is a raise. To about 220.

[SteveO]

A think all the raise does there is build a bigger pot when you want to try and keep it small.

[Nade]

Originally Posted by Steve'O

A think all the raise does there is build a bigger pot when you want to try and keep it small.

Interested to know why you'd want to keep the pot small when you have top pair with a big kicker and probably drawing to the best flush.

[WASP]

Originally Posted by Nade

Interested to know why you'd want to keep the pot small when you have top pair with a big kicker and probably drawing to the best flush.

I cant speak for Steve but the flush draw could be dead, you could be out kicked and you could already be behind to trips - it is early so dont push it, play small ball

[SteveO]

Nade you don't know that and with 2 people left to act behind I think raising is the wrong option. Now if there were 2 spades on the flop and 2 spades in my hand I'd be happy to raise but not in this situation.

[Nade]

Fair enough guys, i see your PoV and nothing wrong with it imo.

[WASP]

Originally Posted by Nade

Fair enough guys, i see your PoV and nothing wrong with it imo.

Its what makes this one interesting Nade and I guess why GaF has chosen this hand (he's so clever ). Its a situation where you can win small or lose big so it is best not to build the pot IMO.

I had a very similar situation in a big tourney recently except I hit the Q but I kept betting into a guy with KK and lost a third of my stack

Be good to see how it played out but I hope its a bad beat for the integrity of the thread

[ubermonkey1]

i'm with steveo and wasp on this

after all there isn't just a draw on the flop, someone may already have the nut flush
so whether you have top pair or a draw your still dead in the water.

if there were less players in the pot i would be reraising to find out where i was, but with 4 still left in the pot i would flat call and see how the hand progressed.
with a bit more info on saja i might even fold then.
if he seemed solid ,then a pot sized bet into a 5 way pot from the bb would be a worry for me.you only have 20 invested so far and with 2 half decent possible hands instead of one good one, i might well let it go .

i would have flat called with this hand pre flop but i would be looking for a better flop than that to go to war on qq ,jj ,qj or straight possabilitys

[GotaFancy?]

Originally Posted by WASP

Be good to see how it played out but I hope its a bad beat for the integrity of the thread

Wasn't planning on putting any more of the hand up - certainly no bad beat there.

I think I flat called, turn was a blank, he put a big bet out and I folded (I seriously cannot remember, I could be wrong).

My initial instinct at the time though was that I played it too passively and could/should have bet it....