Feedback please???

[Tom Hedonist]

Could I get some feed back on this hand please? I'll post my own thoughts at the end of the hand history.

***** Hand 573549807 *****
0.05/0.10 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 01 April 2007 05:10:13
TH Mini 15 (Real /Cash Game )
Seat 1: moadan (7.54)
Seat 2: Hedonists (28.96)
Seat 4: Bestdealer (7.30)
Seat 5: Goma2 (4.16)
Seat 6: k4l4cs (5.93)
Seat 7: timbiri680 (6.07)
Seat 8: goromagu1 (15.74)
Seat 10: Sammybluff (13.39)
goromagu1 post SB 0.05
Sammybluff post BB 0.10
** Deal **
moadan [N/A, N/A]
Hedonists [Jh, Kc]
Bestdealer [N/A, N/A]
Goma2 [N/A, N/A]
k4l4cs [N/A, N/A]
timbiri680 [N/A, N/A]
goromagu1 [N/A, N/A]
Sammybluff [N/A, N/A]
*** Bet Round 1 ***
moadan Call 0.10
Hedonists Call 0.10
Bestdealer Raise to 0.20
Goma2 Call 0.20
k4l4cs Fold
timbiri680 Call 0.20
goromagu1 Call 0.20
Sammybluff Call 0.20
moadan Call 0.20
Hedonists Call 0.20
*** Flop(Board): *** : [7d, Ah, Qd]
*** Bet Round 2 ***
goromagu1 Check
Sammybluff Check
moadan Check
Hedonists Check
Bestdealer Bet 0.40
Goma2 Fold
timbiri680 Call 0.40
goromagu1 Fold
Sammybluff Fold
moadan Call 0.40
Hedonists Call 0.40
*** Turn(Board): *** : [7d, Ah, Qd, Jc]
*** Bet Round 3 ***
moadan Check
Hedonists Check
Bestdealer Bet 0.50
timbiri680 Call 0.50
moadan Call 0.50
Hedonists Call 0.50
*** River(Board): *** : [7d, Ah, Qd, Jc, Js]
*** Bet Round 4 ***
moadan Bet 0.20
Hedonists Call 0.20
Bestdealer Call 0.20
timbiri680 Call 0.20
*** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.29 Total Pot: 5.51
moadan [Kh, 6h] Pair of jacks Win :0.00
Hedonists [Jh, Kc] Three of a kind, jacks Win :5.51
Bestdealer Muck Win :0.00
timbiri680 Muck Win :0.00

Pre Flop
First off, I think should never have got involved in the hand in the first place. KJo in early position is a fairly bad hand. I thought I'd limp with it and see what happened. Player "Bestdealer" had been playing very sloppily (he'd a won a huge pot half an hour earlier, and had given it all back to the table by raising all over the place without so much as a pair). I wasn't at all concerned about his min raise, but if there had been a reraise I was going to muck. Once the betting got back round to me, I was getting pot odds of 13:1 to continue, so in I went.

Post Flop
Quite a good flop for me, although the flush draw is a bit scary. I'm not interested in betting, as I haven't hit anything. I'm still quite happy to fold. Bestdealer makes a small raise (as he does every time). This time when the betting gets to me, I'm getting pot odds of just over 6:1. I think I'm right in saying I've just about got the right pot odds to make a call. If the turn shows a Ten, K or J (bar any diamond) my hand improves (giving me about 5:1??? odds for calling) although not substantially in the case of the K or the J, in fact the K or J could help my opponents more - discounting the KJ entirely would have given me odds of about 8:1

The Turn.
My hand does improve, but not by much. Again Bestdealer leads out with a raise. This time I'm getting over 8:1 pot odds. And I reckon I've got six outs, which also puts me at about 8:1 to call(???). So I do.

The River
I really wasn't expecting to hit trip J's, and wasn't really to sure how to play it. There was still four players in the hand, and I figured I was either slightly ahead, or a long way behind a straight or even a full house. I checked the min raise, and won the pot. Which was nice.

Any comments please? I know I got 'lucky' to some extent, but were my calculations about right as the hand progressed? Was I too timid in checking on the River? I didn't have the nuts, and there were still a lot of players left in the hand. Should I not have included the K's & J's in my calculations after the flop? If not, then I certainly wasn't getting the right pot odds to call???

If anyone thinks the way I played the hand, stinks more than a halibut that was sewn into a pair of curtains, above a radiator, please let me know.

[Masterplan]

nothing out of the ordinary really. i would have made a bet on the river tho. trip js very strong vs all the passive play that happened before

[dibbut]

Halibut / curtains / radiator, no.

Pre-flop

I’d pass KJo in that position. But, you seem to know your opponents, so maybe your judgement overrides generalisations. When it gets back round to you, making up to 0.20 is correct, no-one can come over the top of you.

Flop

I don’t agree that the flop is good for you, not against one foe, definitely not against six.

You are almost certainly behind. You know you have to improve your hand, but you should think “improve to the best hand”. On the turn, of 47 cards, you have 3 outs to the nuts, 1 to a very good hand (though you may be losing to a flush), and 6 to a hand that’s more than likely to still be behind.

Against that, you complete the betting again. Ok, call. If you know that you’ll get paid off if one of your 3 good outs comes, then your implied odds are excellent. But, be aware that if you hit a good Ten, you have to hammer the turn, so that anyone on a flush draw doesn’t have odds to redraw on you.

Turn / River

As Masterplan says, your foes seem real passive. I agree that you can raise the end. You’ll likely only get a reraise from a KT, and in that case, why did that player slowplay the turn?

[Jimany]

Originally Posted by dibbut

Halibut / curtains / radiator, no.

Pre-flop

I’d pass KJo in that position. But, you seem to know your opponents, so maybe your judgement overrides generalisations. When it gets back round to you, making up to 0.20 is correct, no-one can come over the top of you.

Flop

I don’t agree that the flop is good for you, not against one foe, definitely not against six.

You are almost certainly behind. You know you have to improve your hand, but you should think “improve to the best hand”. On the turn, of 47 cards, you have 3 outs to the nuts, 1 to a very good hand (though you may be losing to a flush), and 6 to a hand that’s more than likely to still be behind.

Against that, you complete the betting again. Ok, call. If you know that you’ll get paid off if one of your 3 good outs comes, then your implied odds are excellent. But, be aware that if you hit a good Ten, you have to hammer the turn, so that anyone on a flush draw doesn’t have odds to redraw on you.

Turn / River

As Masterplan says, your foes seem real passive. I agree that you can raise the end. You’ll likely only get a reraise from a KT, and in that case, why did that player slowplay the turn?

Agree with everything said here

[Tom Hedonist]

Thanks for your comments chaps.

Can I ask what sort of bet you would have put on the River? About 3/4 the pot? Or more?

The more I think about it, the more I'm kicking myself for not doing so. I'm fairly certain that Bestdealer would have called anything upto about a pot sized bet and both the others would have probably folded (its easy to say that now I know I had them beat ).

Unless I'm certain I'm ahead, I think I'm quite weak at raising on the river. Even when I put decent size raises in after the flop and after the turn, if someone checks all the way to the river I tend to get a bit nervie
(Which means I'm probably losing money).

Again, thanks for your comments. You've definitely given me something to think about.

[Jimany]

Originally Posted by Tom Hedonist

Thanks for your comments chaps.

Can I ask what sort of bet you would have put on the River? About 3/4 the pot? Or more?

The more I think about it, the more I'm kicking myself for not doing so. I'm fairly certain that Bestdealer would have called anything upto about a pot sized bet and both the others would have probably folded (its easy to say that now I know I had them beat ).

Unless I'm certain I'm ahead, I think I'm quite weak at raising on the river. Even when I put decent size raises in after the flop and after the turn, if someone checks all the way to the river I tend to get a bit nervie
(Which means I'm probably losing money).

Again, thanks for your comments. You've definitely given me something to think about.

He had $6.70 left on the river, i think you toss $4 into the pot hoping he'd continue his sloppy play & come over the top of you with his king-rag.

[staffy]

Can only echo what the others have said really. I would never have played that hand in early position and most times I'm folding in late position unless I know my opposition very well.

On the river not sure I would have made a massive bet there are a lot of hands that could have beaten you.

[Masterplan]

on the river ur not looking to scare anybody off ur only looking to get paid so u shouldn't be looking at bets related to the pot but, rather at the bets that came before you. i would bet $0.50 on the river in the hope that the other 3 would call

[voiceofjoe]

Originally Posted by Tom Hedonist

Could I get some feed back on this hand please? I'll post my own thoughts at the end of the hand history.

I'm posting this just on the hand history, as yet I haven't read your comments or anyone elses - that way i'm not influenced by other peoples thoughts

PreFlop - The limp is OK - and once you've invested the small extra bet is a gimme.

PostFlop - I would have folded here.With so many players and in early position I need to be hitting something of the flop.As it falls it leaves you (in reality) about 4 outs.i.e 3 Tens (ignoring the T d) - and i'd allow another out which would account for the possibilty of Td (and noone hitting the flush) plus the chances of Runner,Runner (JJ,KK and the chances that the aren't double suited etc.)
However you are actually just about given the correct odds to call (I make it 40c to win $2.40 at this point ?)

Turn - Gives you one of the cards for your Runner,Runner - but makes the turn even more difficult to call if someone bangs in a decent bet. As now you are definitely still behind (3rd Pair is a terrible hand with AQ on the board)
I give you about 6 definite outs (4 for 3* Tens,Js plus 2 Ks plus 10d,Jd,Kd as less than full outs with the flush possibilities - although possibilities of a split pot are increased)
However again you are luckily up against some poor players (I make it 50c to win $3-90 at this point ?) who again just about let you have odds to call.

River - Result - When one of the outs hits, and you again get 1 limper before you then I would be putting in a large bet in here the main reason being that with the chipstacks the other players have they aren't going to be able to re-raise,but an all-in from any of them wouldn't dent your stack to much (you've worked to get your big stack now put it to use, is my theory)- if by some chance they have a better hand.
Although I would be pretty confident they hadn't - so your wanting them to make the mistake and call with there Ace-rags

So overall assessment would be - that just by Pot Odds etc you were almost correct all the way through, as I said I would probaly have folded on flopas although you probably had the odds to call, you got lucky in that your opponents were so weak.

Then again thats there fault not yours, so well played !!

[Jimany]

No way in my opinion is a King an out on the turn, that leaves 4 for a straight on board. 3 other players, good chance of a 10.

[Tom Hedonist]

Blimey, so many differing opinions. I'm as lost as ever LOL

Personally, I'm kind of limbo between two opposing states.

I like the idea of a small ($0.50) bet on the river, as I feel although trip J's is a good hand, I'm still not the favourite. So if everyone calls and I win, I've added a couple of bucks to the pot. But if it turns out I'm behind, I haven't slung a load up the garden.

I also feel that if I was happy taking pot odds (incorrect or otherwise ) to call, once I've made a strong hand, against oppoents that I believed were weak, it seems daft not to bet it (ie if I believed my oppenents had nothing before hand, why should I start thinking I've been outdrawn now?).

Aaaaaaaaaaaggggghhhhhh.

Again, thanks to all those who have taken the time to reply. . . I'm still thinking about the best course of action should I find myself in the same position again. . . probably just fold pre flop (OOP) to prevent any difficult decisions