| | | |
In association with Sports-Punter Free Bets Odds Comparison BetHelp XScores
We are the Official Forum of Sports-Punter.com
Sports News  | Sports Stats | Live Scores | OddsChecker | Place Bets | Suggest a Site |
| |||||||
| Poker Strategy Forum Want advice on your play? Want to discuss hand historys and get opinions on how you played them? Here's where you do it. In Association with GCasino Poker |
 | |
 |
| | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
25-10-2008, 00:11
| #1 (permalink) |
| Recreational Poker Player   Join Date: 28 Dec 2005 Location: Leicester UK Age: 40
Posts: 3,182
|  Coolers - lets discuss strategy Inspired by a series of posts here between GaF and I, we thought it best to open a general discussion thread on the correct strategy to play coolers. The relevant posts from the other thread are: GAF said The Gap in these is absolutely huge - much much much more so than other forms of poker - so often you can shove with any two, and others cannot reasonably call with anything (even aces) - success in these games is all about the chips you can pick up pre flop without seeing a flop (let alone a showdown). (This response relates specifically to the hand I posted on the other thread) I said So surviving is not the correct strategy but aggressiveness is? GAF said Surviving is key, for everyone - so it's about situations where your opponents objective to survive will be stronger than the cards they hold and then levereging that situation. There are frequently situations where your opponents cannot call, no matter what cards they hold. In that situation I raise/reraise all in without looking at my cards. When there are a number of mid stacks (of which you are one) this can give you vital breathing space. I said Is there value in increasing your variance by being aggressive in these type of games with a flat pay out structure? GAF said No - you want to minimise your variance in these games. I am raising because my opponents will fold (which means there is no variance) - not because they will call and I will race..... I said In which case I fail to see the difference between this game and a normal STT's - there must be a difference in optimum play given the payout structure surely?  |
|  |
|
25-10-2008, 00:28
| #2 (permalink) |
| Recreational Poker Player Join Date: 28 Dec 2005 Location: Leicester UK Age: 40
Posts: 3,182
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy This is my current thinking on coolers. I play them like super-satallite tourneys - i am only interested in getting paid and if that means limping into the cash with only 1 BB then so be it. In other words I play super tight folding hand after hand and letting opportinities pass to shove in position with a low stack vs the blinds unless I have a good hand (probably top 20% at least) if there are other players in worse shape than me, (if I am the weenie stack i am probably (99%) AI SB vs BB). My goal is to outlast the smaller stacks and get paid. I dont get aggressive early levels with anything but AA (1st hand from tonight, KK in BB a min raise and 3 calls means I call and see the flop and only play if there is no Ace/drawing board). The chance of losing is too great a risk considering the payout structure IMHO - in a top heavy payout normal STT I would be re-raising KK early levels to get HU and see a flop/get AI PF as chips are needed to get ITM. GaF said he would open shove ATC with position when the time was right (stack vs blinds etc). I am unsure this is a good tactic as it increases your variance for little reward compared to a normal STT when the reward is much greater (you double your money in coolers compared to potentially winning 5 times your money). Would be interested to see some maths on this perhaps? I play this way because I believe I am a better player than at least 3 players at the table (at the level I am playing 3-5 euros), so therefore I only have to 'beat' 2 others to get paid. The standard of play on the 3 & 5 euro coolers is as poor as the normal STT's and folding and waiting is a valuable tactic in my book because by the time the bubble arrives the blinds are only 50/100 and I have 1100-1300 chips or so if i have played super tight. Would be interested in hearing other peopls thoughts on playing these. Cheers Damo |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 11:51
| #3 (permalink) | |||||
| Man With a Plan  Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy These 5 hands sum up cooler strategy for me. I'm 6th of 7 with blinds of 100/200 - it's not looking too good!! Seat 1: KEC134 (1880.00) Seat 2: pepinero1 (1510.00) Seat 3: PLTelepee (1530.00) Seat 4: Marusan (2700.00) Seat 8: Morenety (2435.00) Seat 9: venegorr (2035.00) Seat 10: titibni (2910.00) But there are a lot of similarly sized stacks, noone has a huge stack. If I open shove, what can the top 5 realistically call me with (assuming they are reasonably competant?) Not a lot!! SO that's my strategy. In addition, the guy just after me, Marusan, is a regular and definitely seems competent enough to fold big hands when he should! Hand 1 (Under the gun with a very marginal hand) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
 ) - no flops to worry about, no variance at all!! I've gone from a losing position to a winning position without needing any cards, without needing to hit flops and without needing to risk showdowns. Blinds you take down pre flop are where these games are won (or lost)Last edited by GaF; 25-10-2008 at 11:58. | |||||
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 11:54
| #4 (permalink) | |
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
) then there is no variance as there are no showdowns. If you're getting called, then you're not picking the right spots!Fold equity is huge in these games - you must use it (when the time comes) | |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 13:33
| #5 (permalink) | ||
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Of course it doesn't always work out (what does always work in Poker?)  First shove worked Quote:
I'm happy enough with the shove, and my feeling is that my opponents call with AKo was a far bigger mistake than my shove with J8oQuote:
Last edited by GaF; 25-10-2008 at 13:36. | ||
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 17:09
| #7 (permalink) | |
| Legendary Punter  Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
I'm playing only coolers at the moment as they're quite quick and very profitable. I spend the first round or two playing very tight poker but watching what my opponents are doing. Usually after a round I can pick about 3 of the opponents who I know won't make the final 5 (without a huge slice of luck). You also then see who the other tight players are - and then you adjust your play accordingly. You can use the shove with any two cards against the tight players and expect them not to call, but there are still plenty of players who will call with Ace high or a low PP. The more you shove the more other player are likely to call.
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 17:22
| #8 (permalink) | |
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
I think what I'm doing is pretty transparent - they know what I'm doing and I know they know!! However it is still wrong for them to call! My problem is that they don't know that  (though it's not much of a problem, as I do feel I'm crushing the game )If the cards were face up. He has AKo, I have J8o. I shove. He isn't in a danger position. He should fold! If he calls, then he's 35% to be (all but) eliminated. That's 35% to lose his buy in. SO he is a maximum of 65% to "win". If he folds he has a minimum 5/7 (71%) to win (and in reality more because that gives all 7 players an equal chance whilst he's currently sitting in a "winning seat") SO we can be certain that calling with AKo against J7o in that situation is negative ev for him You're right about the advantage from watchin gthe table/players, but I'm 6 tabling, I'm not taking too much in about my opponents | |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 17:47
| #9 (permalink) | |
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
 Thi statement doesn't actually hold true - although currently in a winning position, his chip stack is below average, so I think that he has a below 5/7 chance (ceteris paribus) of winning | |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 20:12
| #10 (permalink) |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy If he calls and wins the hand then he is almost guarenteed to finish ITM. You're offerring him a 35% chance of losing and a 65% chance of winning in this game.
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 20:21
| #12 (permalink) |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy He has a good chance. He's the 3rd shortest stack and the blinds have just passed him. Other people have to make a move before he does.
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 20:30
| #13 (permalink) | |
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
(that's the critical question) | |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 23:01
| #14 (permalink) |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Don't forget that whilst survival is critical in this form of the game, it's also important to knock others out. At some point someone has to take that gamble and knock the others out. Otherwise you'd be in a position where the first into the pot shoves, everyone folds, and this continues until the blinds get too big. If he had lost the hand he would still have had a few hundred chips and a few hands before the blinds are back with him. We've all come back from worse positions in the past.
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." |
|
| |
|
25-10-2008, 23:15
| #15 (permalink) | |
| Man With a Plan Join Date: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 41,298
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
)When two players go up against one another on the bubble in a cooler, before we know the result, often both players are losers (i.e. they both have negative ev) and everyone else at the table is a winner. At some stage someone has to make a stand - just make sure it's someone else and not you I'm interested what slapdash thinks of this train of thought - he plays at a far higher level than me and I imagine it's even more true at that level (where fold equity is greater because players know more when they should fold!!) Also - can we develop the train of thought mathematically and further for some more substantial proof (or otherwise)? You've mentioned before that ICM for top 5 players paid out doesn't exist (or at least, you haven't seen it) - but can we take an 8 seat game with top 4 paid out as a model and extrapolate the results to 10 seat games with 5 places paid? | |
|
| |
|
26-10-2008, 06:10
| #16 (permalink) |
| Dodgy Player  Join Date: 27 Nov 2005 Location: West Yorkshire Age: 51
Posts: 6,681
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Haven't got my head around Gaf's maths yet but... When you say your variance is low because your opponent will fold...I think this is where the strategy would collapse. The assumption is being made that every player at the table is fully aware of the maths behind every given situation. Most can't even calculate pot odds with any degree of accuracy. When they look down at their AK they ain't thinking about how this hand will affect the overall game...they just want your chips and AK will warrant an all-in call. What I'm trying to say is that I think those holding say the top 10% of hands will show down...so your variance is going to shoot through the roof. You are looking at a perfect world where every player plays the ''correct'' way. This doesn't happen and I reckon you would come unstuck, particularly at the lower staking levels, where it is less likely that the players will make the correct mathematical plays. Added: Reading through this thread I realise my performance in STTs is generally poor because I don't apply enough aggression when having stack size and/or positional advantage. I know for a fact that I play far too tight as a general rule and, when I do have a good run, I realise I have been either very lucky with the cards or have been playing very aggressively. As I am a very placid, easy going person in real life it is oh so easy for me to slip into the standard TAG which can really only get you so far in this game.
__________________ Come on ENGLAND...You can do it!!! ...maybe not then! Last edited by Dodger; 26-10-2008 at 07:27. |
|
| |
|
26-10-2008, 09:08
| #17 (permalink) | |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |
|
| |
|
26-10-2008, 09:16
| #18 (permalink) |
| God Punter  Join Date: 08 Aug 2004 Location: Birmingham Age: 32
Posts: 14,079
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Where is the thread if there is one about a pro female poker player who came second in a tourny without ever looking at her cards. Played position and the players. Did not care about the cards at all. In principle its the same here. You play the situation not the cards Aggression at the right times is the key. i guess you will lose from time to time but if you can get in the money 75% of the time then your doing well and you will make profit. I think I am talking myself into playing more of these.
__________________ Punterslounge pontoon competition http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/f...season-105317/ |
| |
|
26-10-2008, 09:18
| #19 (permalink) | |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
Say that they're are still all 10 people in, blinds at 30/15. Someone shoves and you're holding JJ. Do you call at that stage of the tournament? I admit you've lost me on the maths and I'm sure Slapdash will to when he adds to this thread. Again I'd be interested to hear his thoughts as he plays at a higher level than me. Speaking of levels. We often say you should have 20 Buy In's to move up a level. Is that still true of Coolers? When the average player should expect to win 50% of the time, should you move up the levels quicker?
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |
|
| |
|
26-10-2008, 09:25
| #20 (permalink) | |
| Legendary Punter Join Date: 06 Jul 2005 Age: 38
Posts: 1,775
| Re: Coolers - lets discuss strategy Quote:
I rate myself as an OK player nothing more, and my stats from this month show that I win these games at over 80% - I didn't keep stats before this because I wasn't taking it seriously. TAG players on PL should all be able to make a nice profit on these games. The problem is that they are not that exciting.
__________________ "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |
|
| |
 |  | |
| Partner Sites | |||||||
| Football Betting Tips | Bookmakers Free Bets | Odds Comparison | Soccer Punter | SoccerVista |
| Sportwetten Tipps | Nowgoal | Injury & Suspension List |
© 2008 PuntersLounge.Com Ltd | Gambling Problems?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
, 
] 
, 
] 
, 
] 
, 
] 
, 
] 
, 
, 
] 
, 
, 
, 
] 
, 
Linear Mode
