man u v fulham

What can I say, United were completley outclassed.

Fulham held the ball better, were never under much pressure except the first ten mins of the second half - of which united created no clear cut chances. On top of this fulham attacked quicker and looked more threatening for the whole 90.

United missed the driving force of Keane - again the defence was well below par with Silvestre subbed at HT. Djemba Djemba did ok - spritely, aggressive and drove united forward. Butt wasted the ball, likewise did Ronaldo and Giigs. RVN was a passenger Forlan still very average.

United are NOT the best team in the premier.
Defensively we lack strength in depth.
Up front we only have RVN in the entire squad - compare this to Arsenal, Chelsea, Newcastle, Liverpool and even City and I think youll find we are the weakest in terms of depth out of the lot of theses teams.

I believe that Fergie has completley mismanaged the squad since 99 - and it is only the quality players that have stopped him looking a cnut.

This is not one deranged loonie upset after one defeat I have expressed these feelings on a number of occassions and feel they are an accurate reflection on the state of affairs at OT.
I think Fergie has got away with the missmanagement of the club for two long - we are no further on than 1999:

[PAULM03]

as a man utd. fan i've got to agree, problem is when you say these things everyone starts calling you a moaning cnut.

IMO this all goes back to man utd. bowing to keanes contract demands back in '99. By making an exception and breaking the wage structure for one player they killed the goose that layed the golden egg.

It really makes me laugh to hear keane moaning about the lack of commitment from certain players after he held the club to ransom over his wage demands.
He was right about one thing though, there should have been a cull at old trafford and it should have started with him >:

Agree totally Paul.

I am quite prepared to be called a moaning cnut and I am told so by mates at every game I go to!

This does not mean that I have discounted alll that fergie has done for us and the fact remains that he will go down as uniteds finest ever manager due to the turn around in 1990 approx, the building of the youth team, domestic success, euro success and the development of OT and Carrington and even united commercial success.

But the fact remains over the past couple of years he has acted with gross neglegence (spelling?), he fails to see our weak points, he treats players differently as you correctly pointed out when comparing Keane with the likes of Becks and Stam.

No one can tell me that we wouldnt have been stronger with those two still at OT.
Dont get me wrong I will never stop going to the game as it is my passion - however I continue to wonder whether fergie makes his decisions for the benefit of himself or the club.

I feel a bit of a cnut going on about this when you see the mess at Liverpool, Leeds and Spurs but my argument is we are as far away from winning the champions league as liverpool are from winning the league.

Where is the progress from 99.

Interesting points from a couple of Man Utd supporters and I wouldn't be arguing with either of you.

Good point about being lightweight up front with only RVN. IMO I think both you lot and Arsenal could be up a creek if anything happens to RVN/Henry. Without them where are the goals? Compare that to Chelsea's "front 4" and its not hard to see who has the best options.

Fergie has made some funny transfer moves in the summer. £12m for Ronaldo when another £4m would have got you Crespo to partner RVN? Djemba Djemba and Kleberson for central midfield when you already have a 3 into 2 situation with Scholes, Keane and Butt (and dare I say P Neville as well). No natural right sided replacement for Beckham - no matter what he says, OGS is not Beckham's level. Neither is Bellion who wasn't exactly lighting up Sunderland last season.

Fergie "strengthened" the strongest part of the squad with the players you mentioned - none of which are ripping up trees.

Maybe he did try to strengthen the areas we are weaker in but got no joy.

But then again United are and have been for ages the richest club in the world, why can chelsea sign the likes of Crespo, Makellele and Mutu when we were told we couldnt compete with europes elite in the transfer market?

This season will be interesting - I cant see us taking more points than Chelsea or Arsenal from our two meetings which will majorly affect the destination of the title.

Also interesting to see United rejects like Stam, Beckham and Poborski do so well in other clubs. To me, the Ronaldo buy seemed a little like a desperate attempt to divert the attention from the failed Ronaldinho swoop, which would have eased some of their problems this season, certainly. Just look what he is doing for an even worse Barca side...

I also did not quite understand his buys this summer to put it mildly. OK, he has decided to give squad players like Fortune, Solskjaer and Forlan a regular go, but still...

Djemba-Djemba and Howard look good value for money, but at the moment, it seems that all you have to do to stop United is stop Giggs. Apart from him, there is little inspiration on the pitch. RVN is, after all, "just" a goalscorer and without providers he's going to struggle.

Biggest problem for them may be that other clubs could lose the respect they have when playing them...

[waynemcke]

Oh where do I start with this one!

I think it's a little unfair to criticise Fergie's transfer dealings without looking at the excellent transfer deals he's done as well. Remember Eric, Schmeichel, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Keano, RVN (just a goalscorer??? - think he's worth a mention in this list when he's hit 80-odd goals in 2 seasons!).

A lot of the players on this list are players from 'yester-year' but they had the time to establish themselves with the club and elevate themselves to the Mark Hughes/Bryan Robson hall of fame. Most of Fergie's latest signings (Ronaldo, Klebarson, Forlan, Djemba-Djemba and Howard have not had enough time or play to establish their footballing reputations, so to label them as poor signings is, I think, unfair. The only player there to have had a proper opportunity is our keeper and without doubt, he has looked fantastic so far but will grow into the position more and more as he plays more games, gets more experience and blends in with the defence around him.

Every manager in the world has made crap signings but not many have made continual world class signings and not many have progressed a dreadful youth scheme to produce players such as Scholesy, Giggsy, the Nevs, Nicky Butt, Becks, Wesley Brown, JOS, etc, etc. Even the lower calibre youth players leave for fees of up to £2m.

Most of Fergie's latest signings are for the future, not for today. The Nevilles-era are all approaching the later part of their competitive playing careers now. They can't go on forever, but they're still good enough for today. Does it not make sense to bring in younger players who not only have class but also have bags of potential. I think Ronaldo, with the right coaching, will be one of the world's best. Better than Goofy who went to Barca.

We've made one of our best starts to a season for many years and yet one defeat at home (when did we last lose at home?) prompts criticism from all angles. We don't have a divine right to win every game and yesterday, we deserved bugger all. Fulham outthought, outfought and outclassed us yesterday. That's life! It does happen sometimes!

If we play like that for the next month, then I will be right with you in criticising the boys, but after one match?? Do me a favour!! I thought our game against Rangers on Wednesday was one of the most professional performances I've seen from Utd for years. In such an intimidating atmosphere, the boys played it nice and steady and Utd performed fantastically. No kamikaze tactics, no 11 in attack, we played the way we had to play to beat the gers. Maybe Fulham should be allowed the same plaudits for not only finding a way of beating us yesterday, but also doing it.

There's a lot made of a lack of loyalty by footballers these days. One defeat and the fans act in the same way!

Come on fellas, get behind the lads!

[Matt]

You wanna come and see the pile of @#%$ I had to watch yesterday. Would cheer you up no end I promise.

[PAULM03]

The problem is it isnt just one lousy game, this is now going on for 3 years of underachieving.

As much as i hate to admit it arsenal threw the title away last year and we continue to flatter to deceive in europe.

Fair enough ferguson has made some excellent signings, thats not in dispute. As ste said you have to acknowledge everything that ferguson has done in turning man utd. from a crumbling empire to a dominant force.

When we have such a strong youth system why do we have to make signings for the future?

Any signings we make shouldnt be squad signings, they should be players like ruud van nistelrooy that could walk into any team in europe, players that are going to bring an extra dimension to the team and add strength in areas where we are lacking.

It was obvious last season we were over reliant on RVN, so where is the top class forward we should have brought in?

It was obvious we were weak (especially after madrid tore us apart) at the back so where is the world class centre half? (dont get me started on the le blanc and ferdinand affair>: )

Instead what do we get??? bellion (who couldnt even make the first team in the premier leagues worst ever side), Kleberson (so highly rated even leeds were in the running:rolleyes ), Ronaldo (is an 18 year old really going to bring the experience which is undoubtedly needed to be succesful?) and Howard (who is world class and 2 years overdue!)

Dont kid yourself that this is an overreaction to one bad defeat, look back over the last three seasons you'll have a very hard time convincing yourself that ferguson is doing a good job. Any other manager spending nearly £70M on players and not delivering a single trophy would have been sacked.

[waynemcke]

Hi Paul,

Some interesting points there but the most startling is;

Any other manager spending nearly £70M on players and not delivering a single trophy would have been sacked.

Surely you're not refering to Fergie?????

In the four years since we won the treble, we've won the league three out of four times (did Arsenal throw it away last season or did Utd win 48 out of the last 54 points available! - championship winning statistics).

The problem is it isnt just one lousy game, this is now going on for 3 years of underachieving

That is exactly the type of comment that follows Utd and is quoted by the 'new' fans. We've lost our first home league game this year and we've suddenly under-achieved for three years??? We've lost 2 league games in 2003 out of 27 played and we're under-achieving???

Are you a modern-day football day-tripper by any chance? Do you not remember watching Utd before the Fergie era started? We were the most under-achieving side in Europe having not won the League for 20 odd years. Since then, we've had 8 Premier Titles, 4 FA Cups, 1 Champs League, 1 ECWC, 1 Inter-Continental Cup and 1 League Cup which included 2 doubles and The Treble in the last 12 years of Fergie's control. That's not under-achieving in my eyes!

When we have such a strong youth system why do we have to make signings for the future?

Is it realistic or good management to rely on a good youth system? We've got/had the best youth system but no leading football club in the world can rely on one!

Any signings we make shouldnt be squad signings, they should be players like ruud van nistelrooy that could walk into any team in europe, players that are going to bring an extra dimension to the team and add strength in areas where we are lacking.

Agree with you partly. But not 'every' signing can be like RVN. And even then, it's still a gamble. Look at Veron! He was quoted in the paper saying that it's time he repaid Ranieri's faith in him - the same thing he said about Fergie a while back. Waste of money for Utd and a waste of money for Chelski. Wenger is praised (and rightly so) for signing Henry, Viera, Anelka, Bergkamp, etc for relatively next to nothing. The players we've signed in the last few years like Ronaldo, Djemba-Djemba, etc are young and must be given time to settle and improve. We can get a good 12 years out of Ronaldo if he fulfills the potential he's got. Henry wasn't the amazing player he is today when he first signed for Arsenal. But he was given a chance! Bloody good management I call it!

It was obvious last season we were over reliant on RVN, so where is the top class forward we should have brought in?

Think it's a bit naive to think that Fergie doesn't see this. Just because we still don't have a no. 9 doesn't mean that Fergie hasn't tried to sign one. Goofy was going to fill that spot but it didn't work out. Even Utd can be turned down you know! And don't forget, we've still got Ole. His goal scoring record isn't that bad!!!

It was obvious we were weak (especially after madrid tore us apart) at the back so where is the world class centre half? (dont get me started on the le blanc and ferdinand affair )

The weak defence last year was mostly to do with the keeper. Utd had a backbone of Schmeichel and Bruce/Pallister that was settled, knew how to play together and was solid. With Barthez in net and the rotation of the centre halves due to injuries, we never had this last season. Fergie obviously looked at this and decided that Barthez was the reason for the instability in the defence in Europe last season and brought in Howard. Rightly so in my opinion. I don't think that there's many better defensive squads out there than Rio, Silvestre, Gary Nev, JOS, Wesley, Phil Nev. We'd conceded three goals in 9 games before yesterday! Sounds pretty solid to me!!! Teams are allowed to score against Utd you know!

And the games against Madrid, well, I was left in awe by their power. At Madrid, they were simply awesome and at OT, Ronaldo was devastating. It's the first and only time I've seen an opposing player, who's just taken the piss out of the Reds, get a standing ovation by all of OT when he was subbed. Barthez was also at fault for two of his three goals.

Dont kid yourself that this is an overreaction to one bad defeat, look back over the last three seasons you'll have a very hard time convincing yourself that ferguson is doing a good job. Any other manager spending nearly £70M on players and not delivering a single trophy would have been sacked.

And that, my friend, maybe shows the type of supporter you are. Go and buy a book from the MegaStore (you get a free day-trippers carry bag to go with it!) and look at what we've won over the last three seasons. Contrary to your comment this is most definitely an over-reaction to one defeat!!!

Now where's that prawn sandwich gone???

[Aykay1]

i cant quite believe what im reading here!!

Firstly there is absolutely nothing wrong with man u's defence - 6 goals conceded in 10 games and 3 of those were yesterday. Its the 2nd best in the league and superior to both Arsenal's and Chelseas.

In O'Shea and Brown you have 2 of the most promising defenders in Britain.

In Midfield, the only weakness i can see is that Beckham hasnt been replaced but thats always going to be tough. Im sorry but Ronaldo hasnt convinced me yet. Reminds me of Joe Cole - very skillful but not a lot of end product. Having said that he is only 18 so will undoubtedly improve over the coming years.

Up front id expect fergusmoan to sign someone in January but lets face it you're not exactly impotent are u?

Finally i get a bit p!ssed off hearing how we supposedly threw away the league last year. We didnt help ourselves by dropping points at Bolton etc. but you cant compete with a run of form that Man U had - winning 48 out of 54 points

Trust me that is championship winning form!
I had to laugh at whoever said Ferguson hasnt won a trophy in 3 years - i wish!!

I get the impression you expect to see Man u turn up and outplay the opposition every week - im sorry but it doesnt work like that!

[Norfolk Enchance]

I can't quite believe this thread was started I mean ****** hell... what do you want? Maybe teams should just roll over and let Scum win everything, then you might be happy?

And Paul what the hell you going on about, most of what you said is utter crap.

Waynemcke, excellent posts i think you are the one of the first Man U fans I have come across who are able to talk sense. Respect to you from a Leeds fan

And that, my friend, maybe shows the type of supporter you are. Go and buy a book from the MegaStore (you get a free day-trippers carry bag to go with it!) and look at what we've won over the last three seasons. Contrary to your comment this is most definitely an over-reaction to one defeat!!!

That is superb

[waynemcke]

Errr.....thanks Norfolk. Didnt think Leeds had respect for anyone? :p

It amazes me how the Utd fanbase has changed over the last 15 years or so since football became so commercialised.

When Keano came out with his prawn sandwich comments, there was a massive outcry about him slagging off the people who support him and pay his wages. Bollox! The only people pissed off were the people he was talking about and the media who love a scandal.

The 'proper' fans knew exactly what he was saying and were behind him 100%. Some of the things I've seen and heard at OT make me squirm sometimes (as well as posts like the one above) and the 'loyal' fanbase unfortunately get tarred with the same brush. It's why our home support is vocally crap. The same can never be said about the away following but thats the hardcore fan isn't it! How 67000 can make so little noise is tragic. Believe me, no-one hates a Utd day-tripper more than a 'proper' Utd fan!

A few seasons ago, I popped into the toilet at OT after the game as I was leaving. I think Boro had just beaten us. Some tosser with a Cockenese accent and a Utd scarf was spouting off about how @#%$ we were, we were a disgrace, they didnt deserve to be paid, etc, blah blah, etc. A Utd fan with a Manc accent pointed out that maybe he should support the lads instead of whinging and did he remember we'd won the treble last season and we can't be that bad. His reply was that he'd travelled 160 miles to watch the game and he deserved better! That sums it all up! Needless to say the Manc headbutted him and told him to fcuk off back to London.

[PAULM03]

ferguson DID spend nearly £70M and not win a single trophy :rolleyes

look, i'm not saying ferguson should be sacked, and i have been around long enough to remember worse days.

And as for 'true man utd fans' been loyal and getting behind the team i had certain season ticket holding acquantainces complaining that giggs wasnt doing enough for the cause last year. How screwed up is that??? so dont start coming out with the 'day tripper' and 'glory seeker' jibes just cause i happen to have an opinion that differs from yours

I just think the squad is being mismanaged, we've spent a lot of money on players we dont need whilst continually being shown up in europe. The squad we have now is no better than the one in 1999 or even 1993 and considering the amount of money spent since then, that IMO is a travesty.

[waynemcke]

The problem is it isnt just one lousy game, this is now going on for 3 years of underachieving.

ferguson DID spend nearly £70M and not win a single trophy

When? You quoted in the last 3 seasons in which we won the PL twice??? I'm confused??? If you're refering to 2002 as a standalone example when Arsenal won the league, isn't that a little short-sighted? On that basis, the rest of the league probably spent £200m between them. Sack the lot!

The glory-seeker jibes are related to the fact that you are heavily criticising a manager that has won virtually everything and turned a sleeping giant around, after 1 defeat. Added to the fact that you seem to think we have won nothing in the last 3 seasons, makes you look like a glory-seeker who knows nothing! That must seem obvious surely???

You are perfectly entitled to an opinion different to mine. Never said you weren't. But if you quote bollox like we've won nothing for 3 years, you've got to expect people responding in a derogatory manner.

He was right about one thing though, there should have been a cull at old trafford and it should have started with him

So you want to improve Utd by getting rid of Keano? A player who is consistently our driving force. Yet you've just criticised people for getting on Giggsy's back last season when he was poor for most if it. Huh?

Hmmm.... Something of an overreaction here IMO as well. Just as Man U are entitled to lose games, people are entitled to, rightly IMO, critisise Man U for resting on their past succes.

I have seen Man U 4 or 5 times so far this season, and I have yet to be impressed. Scholes hasnt played to his best for ages, the Nevilles have always been overrated, Wes Brown and Keano cannot be relied upon due to injuries, Nicky Butt does nothing but move the ball around, aso. The so called squad strength of Man U is very, very hard to see.

You also have to admit that Fergie has lost several talents now due to him being a stubborn mule, and the fact that they sell Beckham without replacing him on the right does seem odd to say the least.

I agree Ronaldo is a good prospect and JOS, Djemba and the new keeper look very solid, but seriously - can anyone stand up in here and say that Man U are serious challengers for the Champions League? And must that not be the goal for a club of Man Us stature?

[PAULM03]

We HAVE underachieved for the last 3 years. To win the champions league then spend in the region of £100M in the following 4 seasons and not even make the final again IS underachieving. There is no confusion.

And i was referring to 2002 when i said that any other manager spending £70M and failing to win a trophy would have been sacked. Short sighted or not they would have.

On that basis, the rest of the league probably spent £200m between them. Sack the lot!

I think you'll find that barring liverpool they generally have been

So you want to improve Utd by getting rid of Keano? A player who is consistently our driving force. Yet you've just criticised people for getting on Giggsy's back last season when he was poor for most if it. Huh?

Giggs keeps his mouth shut and plays the game. Poor for most of the season or not he's probably been our most consistent performer of the last 10 years and deserved some support when he was going through a rough patch. Keane has moaned about everyone elses lack of commitment after holding the club to ransom and has done increasingly little over the last 3 years to justify his place in the team. He is definitely no longer the consistent driving force you make him out to be, especially in europe. IMO He should have gone.

[waynemcke]

So you were referring to 2002 only. That makes more sense now! The way you phrased it implied we'd won nothing in the last 3 years. And if you read the thread, it wasn't just me who thought that.

However, I think it is short-sighted to pick out 1 of the few years out of the last 12 when we have won nothing and claim that someone else would have been sacked? Houllier, O'Leary, Robson, etc have spent similar amounts and weren't sacked after 1 season. And at the end of the day, we are talking about a man who's record speaks for itself. You can't get rid of him or lambast him on the basis we didn't win something one year when he's brought so much success to the club. That is the attitude of someone who feels that because Utd are Utd, we have the right to win everything. That's a glory-hunter's attitude. And let's remember, this thread only started because Utd have just lost their first league game at home in over 12 months and the 'loyal' fans are disgusted by it and felt the need to whinge. The thread wasn't started after we beat Rangers last week was it!

To win the champions league then spend in the region of £100M in the following 4 seasons and not even make the final again IS underachieving. There is no confusion.

Wrong. A lot of the other Euro clubs have spent way more than £100m in the last 4 seasons. So, working by your rules, they have more right to be in the final! Therefore, in 1999, we over-achieved to win the CL and our rightful place is to get to the quarters/semis. Whilst Real should just get a bye into the final.

Keane has moaned about everyone elses lack of commitment after holding the club to ransom

When Keano held the club to ransom, it was because the most successful team in Britain throughout the 90s were way behind our competition in terms of wages. The wage structure we had in place was uncompetitive. If I remember it was capped at about £25k per week, whilst other players were beginning to earn 2 or 3 times as much at other clubs.

He could have gone to Celtic for 3 times the wage, but he was committed to Utd and felt it worthy of the fight. His 'pay me or I go' threat was simply a method of negotiation by his agents. Risky but successful.

Since he did that, is it only Keane or everyone at the club who has benefited from the new wage structure?

And you only want to sign players who will walk into our first team and not the squad players for the future we have mostly signed recently. How could we do that without Keano's efforts to rid Utd of the wage-capping system Utd were operating with. We used to miss out on players because Fartin Edwards wouldn't authorise the higher wages. Since Keano dug his heels in and told them to pay him what he and his team-mates deserved, we've signed RVN, Veron, Rio, etc. All big-money signings that simply wouldn't have happened on the wage structure that existed before. You can't have it both ways you know!

Keane has done increasingly little over the last 3 years to justify his place in the team. He is definitely no longer the consistent driving force you make him out to be, especially in europe. IMO He should have gone.

So on that basis, sell everyone! We have under-achieved since 1999 according to you, so let's sell everyone! That's how football works isn't it?

You claim Giggs needed support through his bad patch last season (which he got from me) and yet surely by your quote above, we should have sold him?? One rule for Giggsy, one for Keano.

And lets remember, Giggs was captain against Fulham. Keano didn't play. We lost our first league game at home in 12 months. I don't for a minute solely blame Giggsy for that, but where was our driving force on the pitch? Keano has been brilliant this season after a few seasons of injury problems.

Are we supporting the same team?

Wayne - do you see Man U as challengers for this years Champions League?

Not a fcuking hope in hell - DH.

I agree with a lot of your points Wayne and this thread wasnt meant to be me whinging about how Utd should win everything and all other sides should lay down for us to steam roller.

Yes every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market, yes fans will critiscise tactics - but the fact remains and the whole point of this thread was to discuss the complete lack of progression since 99.

Anyone can real off stats and say we have one of the best defences in england but this is simply not good enough for europe. It is only down to the keeper that we havent conceeded more.

United will be in the top three in the premiership but only if RVN stays fit or a complimentary striker is bought.

Wayne - how can anyone justify having one decent striker at the EPL champions and also do you think we have the best squad/team in the premiership?

Once again I recognise and appreciate all that fergie has done over the past 13+ years, but still does this mean noone has the right to question him anymore - I think a further extension to his contract will leave us further behind europes elite.