Cricket: England vs New Zealand Test Series

[Sharpe1ne]

To wholely jump on our last performance in Sri Lanka and draw conclusions from that is not even giving any cricketer a chance.We've never done well out there 2003/04 was the last tour and the only remaining player from that is Vaughan.England have never got used to the conditions out their and never will it's an evil place to go if you've never played on their wickets and dealt with the humidity and crumbling pitches.

England in Sri Lanka, 2003-04 Test Series Averages England v Sri Lanka England Batting and Fielding Name-------- Mat I NO Runs HS Ave SR 100 50 Ct St MP Vaughan---- 3 6 0 221 105 36.83 39.39 1 1 2 - GP Thorpe -----3 6 0 183 57 30.50 31.33 - 1 1 - MA Butcher---- 3 6 0 175 54 29.16 31.41 - 2 1 - ME Trescothick 3 6 0 167 70 27.83 54.75 - 1 6 - A Flintoff ----3 6 0 143 77 23.83 53.96 - 1 - - GJ Batty ------3 6 1 117 38 23.40 26.11 - - - - PD Collingwood 2 4 0 89 36 22.25 28.25 - - 6 - AF Giles ------3 5 1 74 18 18.50 27.20 - - - - RL Johnson---- 1 2 0 29 26 14.50 45.31 - - - - CMW Read ------3 6 2 49 18* 12.25 21.49 - - 5 2 N Hussain----- 2 4 0 46 17 11.50 35.93 - - - - RJ Kirtley---- 2 3 1 16 12 8.00 34.04 - - 1 - JM Anderson--- 1 2 1 2 1* 2.00 10.52 - - - - MJ Hoggard ----1 2 2 6 6* - 23.07 - - - - This team included some of the most accomplished batsman of recent years and even then they could still only muster 1 hundred between them. Most runs England in Sri Lanka Test Series, 2007/08 Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s AN Cook (Eng) 3 6 0 278 118 46.33 677 41.06 1 2 1 29 0 IR Bell (Eng) 3 6 0 261 83 43.50 557 46.85 0 3 0 29 0 MP Vaughan (Eng) 3 6 0 215 87 35.83 442 48.64 0 2 0 26 0 MJ Prior (Eng) 3 5 1 165 79 41.25 389 42.41 0 2 1 20 0 PD Collingwood (Eng) 3 6 1 165 52 33.00 361 45.70 0 1 1 17 0 KP Pietersen (Eng) 3 6 1 126 45* 25.20 250 50.40 0 0 0 17 1 RJ Sidebottom (Eng) 3 5 1 60 31 15.00 253 23.71 0 0 0 5 0 RS Bopara (Eng) 3 5 0 42 34 8.40 73 57.53 0 0 3 7 0 MJ Hoggard (Eng) 2 3 0 23 15 7.66 55 41.81 0 0 1 3 0 JM Anderson (Eng) 1 2 0 20 11 10.00 53 37.73 0 0 0 1 0 SJ Harmison (Eng) 2 2 1 9 9* 9.00 10 90.00 0 0 1 1 0 MS Panesar (Eng) 3 4 3 4 2* 4.00 24 16.66 0 0 1 0 0 SCJ Broad (Eng) 1 1 0 2 2 2.00 8 25.00 0 0 0 0 0 Almost exactly the same stats. Though to give Bopara his debut out there was not a very wise thing to do as it was not gonna give him any confidence in the world on those wickets. (I hope these figures are readable cos the copy and pasting has fecked em up on my end) Strike rates were actually up on that of 2003/04.

[Sharpe1ne]

Also Vaughan is a funny old customer,as he never seemed to tinker with his bowling when we needed a wicket and never has any confidence in anything other than his front line bowlers.Many a year we haven't got anybody out and he's just persisted with the same old order,when it was crying out for Bell to bowl his little dobbers and Collingwood to have a bowl,but no Vaughan knew best and we were smacked round the pitch.
Bopara should have had his chance in a home Test series to gain a bit of confidence and New Zealand at home was the perfect start,but wether Vaughan would have bowled him is a different matter.

[Sharpe1ne]

Also with regard to the slow scoring,Old Traffords wicket was relayed a few years back and it's never produced decent bounce,it's all over the shop.One ball can just take off whilst another would stay low and with the wind that was involved the swing would have only come at a particular time of the day.We had a warm weather and a drying wicket up until the test match arrived which distorted it yet again.
Again not playing against most of the bowlers from New Zealand they would still have that element of doubt on how or what the ball was going to do on that wicket and were perfectly intitled to try and take their time,but the conditions changed throughout the day meaning when you had got in the ball then started to do different things and you had to re-play yourself back in.

[TheRat]

I agree with the fashionable counties thing. Been saying this for years. And if the selectors do pick a player form the likes of Worcester or Gloucestershire etc they don't seem to give them much of a chance or persist with them
Just seem to pluck players out of Surrey etc. this is generalisation of course but this seems to have been the case for a long time

[Sharpe1ne]

Originally Posted by TheRat

I agree with the fashionable counties thing. Been saying this for years. And if the selectors do pick a player form the likes of Worcester or Gloucestershire etc they don't seem to give them much of a chance or persist with them
Just seem to pluck players out of Surrey etc. this is generalisation of course but this seems to have been the case for a long time

I think it's just one of those things that get stuck in peoples heads(mine included)
I can't think of any county that hasn't produced an England player in the last 10 years(bar Derbyshire cos there just poo).Surrey pay the highest wages and will snaffle up as much talent as they can and so it seems that a lot of players come from there.
If your good enough you will come through.Though with the Kolpaks coming into the game lots of counties won't risk the youngsters thus giving us a lopsided england qualification list.


The last test gave us

Strauss-Middlesex
Vaughan-Yorkshire
Cook-Essex
Pietersen-Hampshire
Collingwood-Durham
Bell and Ambrose-Warwickshire
Broad and Sidebottom-Nottingham
Panesar-Northants
Anderson-Lancs

So there's a good spread of counties there.


Though in the last few years unfashionable counties like

Durham-Harmison,Collingwood and Onions
Glamorgan-Jones
Leicestershire-Nixon,Broad
Gloucestershire-Lewis
Have had players into the side but on many occasion injuries(to these players) and regular players(previous test players returning from injury) have come back.
These are just recent players,the likes of Trescothick and others prove you can get in and stay in with unfashionable counties.

[kevshat]

The fashionable counties thing used to have some substance but I don't think that's been the case since Fletcher took over. Unfashionable counties like Worcestershire, Northants, Leicestershire, Gloucestershire and even Kent have all had international call up's in that time. It's only really Derby who haven't and that's only because there's nobody there to call up .

Woody, there's 3 reasons why Sri Lanka scored quicker than us in that series. 1, they have the best batsman in the world in their team and another who's right up there. 2, their batsmen play on those sort of wickets day in and day out and they are meat and drink to them and 3, they have Murali. It could just be that Murali went for 1.57 an over because it was the 1st time we'd faced him on those pitches for a while. However that innings which we were supposedly our most negative was the innings where we scored our quickest in the 1st innings in that series.

At the end of the day, a test match is 5 days long. There's no need to bash it about at 4 an over and take risks. We could've taken more risks against Vettori but why when there was well over 3 days left in the match? Sometimes you have to respect the bowlers and hang in there until the bad ball comes along. Unfortunately for us, they didn't bowl any. You must've been watching a different match to me though to claim the pitch wasn't doing much then. Cook (given out wrongly)'s dismissal seamed so much it was heading towards Leeds when it hit him and Vettori was turning it square at times. It's times like that you have to knuckle down and survive then hope to be in when it gets easier to bat and score the runs then. As it was the pitch stayed tricky throughout there innings so we were able to bat when the pitch was easier in our 2nd innings.

I'd have to question how much you've seen of Bopara. I suspect it's very little as you keep on referring to his poor series in Sri Lanka. Sharpie's backed up what I was trying to say about him and I've seen him twice this season now and he's looking good with bat and ball. However the role of the number 5 bowler isn't all about taking wickets. If it is we'd get a 5th bowler in and play the wicket keeper at 6. His job is to tie an end up for a few overs to allow the main 4 bowlers a bit of a rest and keep the run rate down so the opposition don't get away from us. If he happens to pick up a couple of wickets in the process then excellent. If KP, Bell and Vaughan bowl then we can play a Ramprakash or a Key but the fact is they don't so the only option we have is to play a Collingwood/Bopara so that we have the extra bowler because playing a 3 match back to back series with only 4 bowlers will only result in 1 thing. Injury.

[Sharpe1ne]

Originally Posted by kevshat

It's only really Derby who haven't and that's only because there's nobody there to call up .

.

2 posts wrote at the same time and both think Derbyshire are poo

[kevshat]

Originally Posted by Sharpe1ne

2 posts wrote at the same time and both think Derbyshire are poo

Great minds eh

[WoodyTHFC]

One of the examples you used where England's first innings run rate was lower than their run rate in Kandy, they got bowled out for just 81 in what was a shambolic batting performance so I dont think that that is a good example to use at all. We all know Murali is a great bowler but I still say that they should have found a better balance between attack and defence in that first innings in Kandy. Scoring at 1.57 runs an over and getting out to him (6 wickets) just handed the initative back to Sri Lanka having bowled them out cheaply and then got off to a good start despite losing Cook early on. Using it as an excuse that we have not faced him for a while is not good enough for me. They have seen enough of him now, faced him lots of times and on different tracks to have a strategy to try to combat him. After that, as I said before, I reckon they played him better and in that bit more of a positive manner without being reckless, so why the total defensive option in the first innings? Maybe lack of preparation? Maybe England crack whenever any kind of real pressure and go into totally defensive mood? Remember Adelaide. England reduced Warne to bowling round the wicket in the first innings, they were all over him. Yet in the second innings on that final day they just wilted and played one of the most inept and defensive batting performances you could wish to see, they lost and from that point where never ever going to even come close to getting a test match in that series. In Hamilton England put in another one of their defensive classics, they lost.

Just a point about Sharpe's post. You almost describe the wickets in Sri Lanka as atrocious and unplayable turning pitches that Engalnd have never mastered. Well this is not completely true because if you go back to 2001 they won the test series, lets not forget they won the ODI series before the tests. Also I dont think the pitches out their were actually that bad, i would argue that Old Trafford turned more in the last match. Also they are far more used to the pitches in the subcontinent as a whole then they were in the past. I could understand someone saying a few years ago that these types of sub continent pitches are alien to them but not now. Plus another point is that Bopara is percieved as a player who is wristy and actually plays the lowish, turning pitches quite well and spin in general, so he should have liked the conditions out there really.

As for the amount of times I have seen Bopara in the real I believe it is just the once in a 20/20 game at Southgate, it might be more though, cant remember tbh. In that game for what it is worth Bopara bowled an over where his economical and tying up one end bowling went for 24 runs in an over as Shah ironically bashed him round the park, Essex lost. I have seen him lots of times on the TV though and sometimes I have been impressed, nearly winning that world cup game against Sri Lanka and winning the odi with Broad against India. Other times I have seen him look pretty average, Sri Lanka tests would be one example. However whenever I have seen him bowl I never have rated him that at all. Unless he has put on at least a yard of pace over the winter, he bowls gentle medium pace and quite frankly I doubt any proper batsmen in international cricket would be scared of him. As I have said countless times before, KP/Vaughan and Bell could do the job you are mentioning just as well as Ravi. Im sure if you said to Bell that despite his average batting form, all that he has to do is start bowling 10/12 overs in a day to secure his place in the side he will bite your hand off and suddenly start bowling. You can have your argument but i am standing by mine. Bopara, despite a decent start to the county season, is not as good a batsman at this current time then Ramps/Key/Shah etc (players who have scored consisitently in county cricket for years) and if he simply was to get into the team because he can bowl 10/12 overs economically then that would be poor selection for me. Firstly i would doubt Vaughan would have the confidence to bowl him as a regular fifth bowler and secondly i am sure that Mccullum, taylor, Oram etc are quaking in their boots at the thoght of facing Ravi Bopara. I can see them right now just blocking for 2/3 runs an over.

I am not going to say another more on this topic, I have made my feelings known.

[kevshat]

Good lord. This is test cricket not twenty20 cricket . What Bopara's bowling was like on a tinpot outground in a twenty20 match 3 years ago is of no relevance here. For the record, like most 19 year old's tend to do, he's grown a bit and now bowls early 80s mph. And suggesting Bell who hasn't bowled for years can suddenly just do the job is ridiculous. Whichever way you look at it, that number 6 spot is either Collingwood's or Bopara's while Flintoff isn't around.

It's all irrelevant anyway because I can't see any changes being made for Trent Bridge now. It's a bit surprising that Bell, Colly and Ambrose haven't been released to play for their counties this week to try and get some runs in them.

[Aarun]

No tips or owt, but the New Zealand team came into my work today, they are massive!!! It's funny the size of cricketers never look so big until you see them in real life, same with Pieterson he was in last week now he is like the terminator.

[meatman]

What I've realised over the years is that Sri Lanka is an exceptionally tough place to play cricket. The wickets and conditions can be very unique and strange. The SL players of course know exactly how to handle them and have a major advantage. A lot of things come into play, stamina for one thing because of how humid and hot the conditions are. In general run rates are slow out there aren’t they? especially from visiting test sides. Murali is absolute top class and difficult to play on home turf. The key thing is not to give your wicket away cheaply so I think we can be forgiven for having slow run rates over there. You have to be accustomed to their climate to be able to succeed, something which isn’t easy. If you can come away with a series draw then your doing very well. What we achieved out there in 2001 was fairly exceptional looking back, christ knows how we did it.

There is a balance to be found regarding run rates, but on the SL matter, I'll defend us.

As for the Bopara situation - well I’d give him the nod over Collingwood at the moment. He seems in good nick and is probably a better bowler. Colly really does look in atrocious form.

[kevshat]

Sri Lanka's your sort of place isn't it Steve - hot as fcuk and lots of grafting needed. I know you like your grafters .

[meatman]

Originally Posted by kevshat

Sri Lanka's your sort of place isn't it Steve - hot as fcuk and lots of grafting needed. I know you like your grafters .

haha yeh I do like to see a bit of grafting sometimes

Dunno about Sri Lanka though, I reckon it'd be a bit too hot and humid for my liking

Anyway england's run rate is nothing compared to something which I came accross recently.

In the league which I play in every saturday there is a regular season handbook which includes all sorts of facts and figures.

This I quote from the book about a game played last year

For Goldsbrough in the match against Ripley on 28th July, Andy Morgan Bowled 12 overs with 11 maidens conceding just 1 run. In the same match, Ripley opening batsman Alan Clapperton batted 24 overs before scoring his 1st run

Now that is quite incredible if you ask me, talk about needing time to get your eye in

[kevshat]

Originally Posted by meatman

haha yeh I do like to see a bit of grafting sometimes

Dunno about Sri Lanka though, I reckon it'd be a bit too hot and humid for my liking

Anyway england's run rate is nothing compared to something which I came accross recently.

In the league which I play in every saturday there is a regular season handbook which includes all sorts of facts and figures.

This I quote from the book about a game played last year



Now that is quite incredible if you ask me, talk about needing time to get your eye in

You always used to complain how cold it was . I thought Sri Lanka would be right up your street .

You'd expect that sort of scoring up your way! Have they been watching Boycs bat . I take it nobody told them you play 45 overs .

[meatman]

Originally Posted by kevshat

You'd expect that sort of scoring up your way! Have they been watching Boycs bat . I take it nobody told them you play 45 overs .

Aye been watching too much boycs I reckon lol

Yeh if I still hadn't scored a run by that mark then I'd rather just hit my own stumps, he must've taken a real ribbing that day.

[Pie-chucker]

+ 136.5 at OT. Only shocker was Broad performance; not one bloody wicket.
+ 167.5 so far in series

ODI team announced Friday. Good time to tell Collingwood to take a rest/get some county runs and return to skipper that.

Ramps at 4
KP 5
Bell 6

but it'll never happen. Quite right.... tell Bell he has to be ready to bowl 2 spells of 5 any innings. Or else. Some of these blokes just seem to coast along.

[kevshat]

Not surprisingly, England are unchanged .

[Pie-chucker]

Selectors are lily-livered with this batting line-up. Flintoff return will be the only decision they'll make all summer, it seems.

England got in trouble against 10 men at OT and just the worse of the draw at Lords.
NZ at 6-1 is far too big for this. Weather Nottingham seems fine end of the week.

30 pts NZ win 3rd Test @ 6-1

[Pie-chucker]

Here are first innings scores at Trent Bridge in 4-day games this season.

202 Notts
238 Kent (won match)

113 Lancs
202 Notts (won)

277 Sussex (won)
251 Notts

So, no side topping 300 and a result in all 3 games.

Weather set surprisingly fair for the weekend so draw would seem to be out of the equation. In a two-horse race, NZ are now 11/2.